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Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!

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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : Well ok, but only because you out lasted me in the World record tourney. If you are short stacking I have this advice. You are looking for two situations IMO. 1)  A situation versus a Laggy opponent in a HU pot where you have a slightly above marginal hand and stronger.  You want the LAG to bet into you and get themselves pot-stuck or so much invested that they will call your shove with a wide range of dubious strength just because of how little it is left to call.  These spots will normally involve you or the villain in the blinds.  Second pair is the effective nuts for you to shove over a C-Bet or flop donk lead. 2)  (NB:  This one applies more to 20-30 BB stacks rather than 40BB)  A situation where you can get a preflop/flop shove called in 3+ spots and you have a a good multi-way hand.  For instance, a raise from a serial raiser gets called in 2 spots, you're in the BB with 78s.  This is a shove for me and I am hoping the original raiser doesn't ISO but does call to bring in everyone else.  I'm shoving all pairs and all middle suited cons in this spot but I'm less likely to shove with junky unsuited broadway cards that are easily dominated (KJo is a fold). Finally take raise/fold out of your playbook.  It doesn't exist now.  If you are going to C-Bet, probably just shove (or if you're OOP throw in the old C/R shove C-bet). Hope some of this helps.  I have looked at short stacking as a tactic but very rarely done it. And I am sincere when I say good luck to both of you.  Well, mostly.
    Posted by TommyD

    Good advice, Tommy and thanks for your well-wishing too.

    Let me throw this into the mix- is there any value in opening up say, 6 tables- shortstacked at each and every one, and then fold away on each table until you hit a hand pre-fop and then just shove the lot?

    So most the time, everyone else will fold, but occasionally you'll get that cal and if your hand hold up, you get the double up and you leave the table and start aghain on a new table shorttsacked?

    It's not pretty poker, but over the course of a couple of hours will I make more money this way? Or will I be throwing away opprotuniteis by piling all my money in pre-flop with KK and getting no callers- or worse, gettiing called and getting beat thereby losing my entire stack. Or woul losing my stack on two tables be more than offset by doubling up on 3 or 4 others? And would this be the ratio?

    Thoughts please anyone?
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    haha rich good idea tho hey i see greghogg and the don have there own bankroll challenege throughout decamber so thats y i thought of it really yeah both decide what the forfeit would be maybe the loser wheres summit silly on a sky poker show 1 nite lol 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    I think the winner gets to decide what film the loser has to watch! 

    I'm thinking already of Transformers 3, Look Who's Talking Now and Hannah Montana for James. 

    Any other suggestions?

    Actually, I seem to remember he HATED Avatar- so I could order him to sit through the director's extended cut of that!
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    Short stacking is two moves, pre flop and on the flop – good luck with that ) I would say it’s very similar to 15-25 bb MTT play, which would probably suit James style of play. Deep stack (100-200bb) just allows more room for play and draws, plus a greater chance to win more. I can see the sharks licking there lips !!! btw is this your own money ?
    Posted by rancid
    It's not my own money to start with, Rancid. but heck, I might be temtped to use my own account if I find a format/level/style that seems to work for me!

    When you say shortstacking is two moves: preflop and postflop- do you mean that you shouldn't really be involved in hands on the turn and river at all?
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  • acebarry10acebarry10
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : It's not my own money to start with, Rancid. but heck, I might be temtped to use my own account if I find a format/level/style that seems to work for me! When you say shortstacking is two moves: preflop and postflop- do you mean that you shouldn't really be involved in hands on the turn and river at all?
    Posted by RICHORFORD
    Er, does this mean I have got the sack now ? :)
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : Er, does this mean I have got the sack now ? :)
    Posted by acebarry10
    Lol- the temporary sack, Baz. I'm not doing any more MTT challenges for the time being. Cheers for everything though, mate.
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  • Sky_ClaireSky_Claire
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    Good luck to both of you with this new project. It would be a good idea if your sessions would be broadcasted some time in the channel. I hope you enjoy it and earn some cash also...:)
    Posted by GreekWay
    If you guys get on any of the Master Cash tables we will definitely try and get them out on the channel. Maybe Richard or James might get featured on Top Of The Pots.......... then again probably not :)
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  • tierceltiercel
    edited December 2011
    Why is your oppo the "vllain " ? Looking at your avatar I 'd say he would be a " hero " to take you on !!!

    n Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : Well ok, but only because you out lasted me in the World record tourney. If you are short stacking I have this advice. You are looking for two situations IMO. 1)  A situation versus a Laggy opponent in a HU pot where you have a slightly above marginal hand and stronger.  You want the LAG to bet into you and get themselves pot-stuck or so much invested that they will call your shove with a wide range of dubious strength just because of how little it is left to call.  These spots will normally involve you or the villain in the blinds.  Second pair is the effective nuts for you to shove over a C-Bet or flop donk lead. 2)  (NB:  This one applies more to 20-30 BB stacks rather than 40BB)  A situation where you can get a preflop/flop shove called in 3+ spots and you have a a good multi-way hand.  For instance, a raise from a serial raiser gets called in 2 spots, you're in the BB with 78s.  This is a shove for me and I am hoping the original raiser doesn't ISO but does call to bring in everyone else.  I'm shoving all pairs and all middle suited cons in this spot but I'm less likely to shove with junky unsuited broadway cards that are easily dominated (KJo is a fold). Finally take raise/fold out of your playbook.  It doesn't exist now.  If you are going to C-Bet, probably just shove (or if you're OOP throw in the old C/R shove C-bet). Hope some of this helps.  I have looked at short stacking as a tactic but very rarely done it. And I am sincere when I say good luck to both of you.  Well, mostly.
    Posted by TommyD
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  • tierceltiercel
    edited December 2011
     No . Get him in front of something long and Russian with no subtitles or dubbing.

    n Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : I think the winner gets to decide what film the loser has to watch!  I'm thinking already of Transformers 3, Look Who's Talking Now and Hannah Montana for James.  Any other suggestions? Actually, I seem to remember he HATED Avatar- so I could order him to sit through the director's extended cut of that!
    Posted by RICHORFORD
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
     No . Get him in front of something long and Russian with no subtitles or dubbing. n Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! :
    Posted by tiercel[/QUOTE

    Sadly I fear James would enjoy that.

    Btw- have you considered renaming yourself Tinsel, just for the Xmas period?

    Right back to the matter in hand- Does anyone have advice for me on shortstacking on Wednesday night?
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  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : It's not my own money to start with, Rancid. but heck, I might be temtped to use my own account if I find a format/level/style that seems to work for me! When you say shortstacking is two moves: preflop and postflop- do you mean that you shouldn't really be involved in hands on the turn and river at all?
    Posted by RICHORFORD
    He means you'll be all in by then.
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : He means you'll be all in by then.
    Posted by Poker_Fail
    OK- ty Poker_Fail. So basically you're sticking the lot in pre-flop, or if you can call a small bet for value and hit the flop hard, you stick it all in then?

    What's the upper limit for a short-stack i.e. how many BBs do you need to have before this doesn't apply? 20? 30?
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush
    edited December 2011
    One major factor in this will be that everyone knows you.

    This will cause1 or a mixture of these 3 things.

    1. Everyone knows what your doing and will just avoid playing you except very strong hands as they know your likely to shove it in on any flop.

    2. Because of who you are you will get called light (opposite to 1.) You won't be able to make any steals and will find yourselves waiting for premiums and getting 7 callers on a 6 handed table.

    3. Higher staked players will follow you where ever you go and try and "do you" therefore you will not really be playing 10nl as such, more like 50 / 100nl but just at 10nl stakes.

    IMO the only way you could get this to work properly is to do it on an unknown account.

    Goodluck with it though, and like others have said, I hope you both crush it!
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    One major factor in this will be that everyone knows you. This will cause1 or a mixture of these 3 things. 1. Everyone knows what your doing and will just avoid playing you except very strong hands as they know your likely to shove it in on any flop. 2. Because of who you are you will get called light (opposite to 1.) You won't be able to make any steals and will find yourselves waiting for premiums and getting 7 callers on a 6 handed table. 3. Higher staked players will follow you where ever you go and try and "do you" therefore you will not really be playing 10nl as such, more like 50 / 100nl but just at 10nl stakes. IMO the only way you could get this to work properly is to do it on an unknown account. Goodluck with it though, and like others have said, I hope you both crush it!
    Posted by FlashFlush
    Cheers Charles, good points. I think I may have to go undercover as well at various points during the month to have proper exam conditions.
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  • cenachavcenachav
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : I think the winner gets to decide what film the loser has to watch!  I'm thinking already of Transformers 3, Look Who's Talking Now and Hannah Montana for James.  Any other suggestions? Actually, I seem to remember he HATED Avatar- so I could order him to sit through the director's extended cut of that!
    Posted by RICHORFORD
    I can recommend any of the barbie movies.  Barbie fashion fairytale is particually, errrrmmm, different from most films James will like ;).  Good luck to both of you and may you both run good
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : Good advice, Tommy and thanks for your well-wishing too. Let me throw this into the mix- is there any value in opening up say, 6 tables- shortstacked at each and every one, and then fold away on each table until you hit a hand pre-fop and then just shove the lot? So most the time, everyone else will fold, but occasionally you'll get that cal and if your hand hold up, you get the double up and you leave the table and start aghain on a new table shorttsacked? It's not pretty poker, but  over the course of a couple of hours will I make more money this way? Or will I be throwing away opprotuniteis by piling all my money in pre-flop with KK and getting no callers- or worse, gettiing called and getting beat thereby losing my entire stack. Or woul losing my stack on two tables be more than offset by doubling up on 3 or 4 others? And would this be the ratio? Thoughts please anyone?
    Posted by RICHORFORD
    As far as multi tabling goes, if you are short stacking I think you have to open as many as you are comfortable with.

    As far as waiting for hands go, this can work at full ring tables but not at 6Max IMO, you're just in the blinds too much.  My perception of shortstacking is when you put it in, you want a call.  You either want one player to call off with a more unprofitable range than they should due to your stack (it's only £X, let's gamble etc) or to get it all in multi way with a multi way hand and the odds.

    One little note, I think your BRM should be as if your are playing full buyins even though you are short stacking.  You'll be getting in so many spots where you have the odds but are not the favourite that swings will happen.
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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    OK...apologies for the delay (wireless issues)...

    It's now time to start my crusade...it's time to start short-stacking 30nl!


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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    One major factor in this will be that everyone knows you. This will cause1 or a mixture of these 3 things. 1. Everyone knows what your doing and will just avoid playing you except very strong hands as they know your likely to shove it in on any flop. 2. Because of who you are you will get called light (opposite to 1.) You won't be able to make any steals and will find yourselves waiting for premiums and getting 7 callers on a 6 handed table. 3. Higher staked players will follow you where ever you go and try and "do you" therefore you will not really be playing 10nl as such, more like 50 / 100nl but just at 10nl stakes. IMO the only way you could get this to work properly is to do it on an unknown account. Goodluck with it though, and like others have said, I hope you both crush it!
    Posted by FlashFlush
    Interesting thoughts, Charles.

    If 100nl players choose to play down in a bid to "do me," good luck to 'em.  I hope the £12 is worth their time ;-)

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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    An interesting start to the experiment...

    Sat down at Barnstable (ten-handed table) with 40bbs. Posted. Called a raise with AQ. Flopped the nut straight. More than doubled-up!!!

    Now also sat at Koszalin (six-max table) with a 40bb stack.

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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    Should point out that I'm playing standard short-stacking strategy - once I've got my £12 up to £30 (100bbs), I'm moving on to another table!

    EDIT: I might be at Koszalin for some time...I've already been stacked three times :-o



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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    OK, here's my half-time report...

    As previously mentioned, things started well at Barnstable (ten-handed 15p/30p NLHE). First hand: I called a raise with AQ, flopped the nuts (KJT), got action from KJ, more than doubled up. A few hands later, I got it in pre-flop with AK against AQ and won another decent pot. I left the table with a profit.
    +£24.23

    At Sandmoor (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a few small pots before a big coup: AK>QQ (aipf). Once again, I left the table with a profit.
    +£18.00

    At Bramley (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a big flip (99>AK) and then picked up a few decent pots, ensuring I left this table with a decent profit.
    +£11.17

    Koszalin (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE) was the thorn in my side. I got stacked (for my £12 buy-in) three times: AK<QQ (aipf); K9<QT (on a flop of QJ9); KK<AK (aipf). I won a bit back during my final hour at the table, but, suffice to say, took a hit here.
    -£31.31

    So, my short-stacking experiment resulted in a net PROFIT of £22.39.

    But did I enjoy the experience?

    In a word, no!

    First of all, it's boring. Not only do you have to wait for the right hands, you also have to wait for the right spots. You're then almost completely reliant on variance.

    It's like playing a below average stack in a MTT. Your decision-making is confined to two betting streets: pre-flop and on the flop. It's pretty basic.

    That said, I think short-stacking requires two key skills: patience and the ability to assess +EV shoving spots.

    I'm not sure I possess these skills! I made the mistake of playing too many hands, and frequently went set-mining without the correct implied odds.

    Towards the end, I followed TommyD's advice and made some "classic" short-stacking moves (shoving 35bbs with 76s over the top of a 4x open and two calls).

    However, I much prefer playing intricate, multi-street poker. So, with that in mind, it's time to explore the opposite end of the spectrum: deep stack (200bb) No Limit Hold'em!

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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    I'll be frequenting the Master Cash tables for the rest of the evening.

    In the meantime, if you'd like to add your own thoughts on short-stacking, please post away, especially if you disgree with the crux of my assessment!


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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited December 2011
    i hate short stacking for 1 if u get a massive hand like aa and hit the flop massive u want to double up your full buy in not duble up your small buy in :) 
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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2011
    OK, I played two Master Cash tables, with full (200bb) stacks...

    At Master Cash 3 (10p/20p), I managed to recover from an initial downswing and make a profit.
    +£15

    At Master Cash 6 (15p/30p), I had a terrible session, but learned four valuable lessons:
    1) Stick to 10p/20p.
    2) Don't bluff SoLack.
    3) Don't make hero calls against SoLack.
    4) Basically, don't get involved in pots with SoLack.
    Suffice to say, I made a huge loss.
    -£49.62

    Playing deep is much more fun. You can afford to set-mine and make speculative calls with suited one-gappers. You can even afford to call three-bets (in position, obv) and see flops.

    Plus, you don't have to play hands like 88/99/TT as if they're aces. In fact, at MC 6, I actually flatted a four-bet pre with QQ and folded (to a c-bet from my TAG opponent) on an AKx flop. I would NOT have been able to get away from that hand playing <40bbs.

    It requires more skill to play deepstack cash poker (which is probably why I lost money this evening - lol), but it's a much more satisfying experience.

    As my crusade continues, I will always be playing 100-200bbs.

    So, after Week 1, I've accrued a LOSS of £12.23. To be fair that ain't bad for a night's entertainment, or, in my case, a few hours of invaluable scientific research.

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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    OK, here's my half-time report... As previously mentioned, things started well at Barnstable (ten-handed 15p/30p NLHE). First hand: I called a raise with AQ, flopped the nuts (KJT), got action from KJ, more than doubled up. A few hands later, I got it in pre-flop with AK against AQ and won another decent pot. I left the table with a profit. +£24.23 At Sandmoor (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a few small pots before a big coup: AK />QQ (aipf). Once again, I left the table with a profit. +£18.00 At Bramley (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a big flip (99 />AK) and then picked up a few decent pots, ensuring I left this table with a decent profit. +£11.17 Koszalin (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE) was the thorn in my side. I got stacked (for my £12 buy-in) three times: AK<QQ (aipf); K9<QT (on a flop of QJ9); KK<AK (aipf). I won a bit back during my final hour at the table, but, suffice to say, took a hit here. -£31.31 So, my short-stacking experiment resulted in a net PROFIT of £22.39 . But did I enjoy the experience? In a word, no! First of all, it's boring. Not only do you have to wait for the right hands, you also have to wait for the right spots. You 're then almost completely reliant on variance. It's like playing a below average stack in a MTT.  Your decision-making is confined to two betting streets: pre-flop and on the flop. It's pretty basic. That said, I think short-stacking requires two key skills: patience and the ability to assess +EV shoving spots. I'm not sure I possess these skills! I made the mistake of playing too many hands, and frequently went set-mining without the correct implied odds. Towards the end, I followed TommyD's advice and made some "classic" short-stacking moves (shoving 35bbs with 76s over the top of a 4x open and two calls). However, I much prefer playing intricate, multi-street poker. So, with that in mind, it's time to explore the opposite end of the spectrum: deep stack (200bb) No Limit Hold'em!
    Posted by J-Hartigan
    Look at the way Orford's come on since listening to Tikay and Frazer!
    Selection and Staking improvements have led to multiple (well at least three) final tables.
    If it's patience you need to improve I dare you to multi table up to 4 low level mtt's deciding in advance ten hands you'll play and only play those hands until you're in the money or have less than ten big blinds.
    I'd wager you couldn't do it without succumbing to temptation! but if you could I think you might learn a valuable lesson!
    Myself I lose interest too easily but i'd love to see the effect the discipline would have!
    Good Luck on the tables!
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited December 2011
    If you wanna learn patience James, get to the 4NL tables. It would be a real shame if these do not get included  in your journey, or at least 8NL/10NL because it's basically the same bad play but less of it.

    But that'll teach you patience cos you'll get crucified if you keep playing marginal hands and getting outdrawn by people who called your preflop raise with 102 off
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  • belsibubbelsibub
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE!:
    If you wanna learn patience James, get to the 4NL tables. It would be a real shame if these do not get included  in your journey, or at least 8NL/10NL because it's basically the same bad play but less of it. But that'll teach you patience cos you'll get crucified if you keep playing marginal hands and getting outdrawn by people who called your preflop raise with 102 off
    Posted by Lambert180
    Even if he moves down to these levels the reg's will just follow him so playing same players smaller stakes.I remember  trying to beat Santa on an 4p/8p table to get into a freeroll had gliterbabe to my left and alot more reg's on the table and that was the only chance i had in my brm.Gave up trying to play the presenter years ago even if they open multiple tables at low stakes the same higher level player dive in on all of them and stay there till the end.
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    Right, it's over to me!

    I'm the resident Sky Poker presenter on the tables tonight and I'll be all over the cash tables.

    As discussed before, I will be exploring the pros and cons of short-stacking!

    As soon as I'm seated I'll let you know where I am!
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    Ok- I'm on Mastercash 7 25p/50p with the minimum £25

    and Burntisland 10p/20p with the maximum £20

    Come and rail, and better still, play!

    I might not be able to chat as much tonight though as I'm multi-tabling and taking notes too!
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    Key hand on the short-stack table early doors!

    Got the double-up I needed by putting in a decent-sized pot-committing raise pre-flop faced with multi-action and then didn't lay it down for the remaining £14. i.e. looked for a spot where I could get the lot in pre-fop with a premium hand which then held up...
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    RICHORFORD Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £21.82
    Curt360x27 Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £99.50
    MrVHSENNA Big blind   £0.50 £1.25 £99.50
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • A
    		     
    MrVHSENNA Check        
    ACEOLE Raise   £1.50 £2.75 £21.42
    tez104 Call   £1.50 £4.25 £34.22
    Trawlerman Fold        
    RICHORFORD Raise   £7.50 £11.75 £14.32
    Curt360x27 Fold        
    MrVHSENNA Fold        
    ACEOLE Fold        
    tez104 All-in   £34.22 £45.97 £0.00
    RICHORFORD All-in   £14.32 £60.29 £0.00
    tez104 Unmatched bet   £13.65 £46.64 £13.65
    RICHORFORD Show
    • Q
    • A
    		     
    tez104 Show
    • 9
    • 9
    		     
    Flop
       
    • 5
    • Q
    • A
    		     
    Turn
       
    • K
    		     
    River
       
    • A
    		     
    RICHORFORD Win Full House, Aces and Queens £44.84   £44.84
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  • RICHORFORDRICHORFORD
    edited December 2011
    Ok- started on Mastercash 7 shortstacked with £25 where the max buy-in was £100. And walked away with £41.41

    I'm now going to take that amount and shorty it on a higher level table
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