C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players

GLifUlose

It's not lowering anything for "All players".

Non priority club

0-249 points = No difference

250-499 points = Lose entry

500-624 ponts = Lose money

625 points = Break even

626-999 points = Profit

1000-1499 points = Lose money

1500 points = Break even

1501-1999 points = Profit

2000-2499 points = Lose money

2500 points = Break even

2501-2999 points = Profit

3000-3571 points = Lose money

3572-3999 points = Profit

4000-4687 points = Lose money

4688-4999 points = Profit

5000-5555 points = Lose money

5556-5999 points = Profit

6000-6249 points = Lose money

6250 points = Break even

6251-7999 points = Profit

8000-8333 points = Lose money

8334-9999 points = Profit

10000-10576 points = Lose money

10577-11999 points = Profit

12000-12499 points = Lose money

12500-15999 points = Profit

16000-16666 points = Lose money

16667-19999 points = Profit

20000+ without priority club is losing money.

Priority Club

Don't know how this worked as it won't affect me so never bothered looking, think it was +25% on C4P? Think in the lower priority club levels, the <25% increase will be offset by the larger payout before the boost in most cases. At the higher C4P levels, where people are likely to be professional poker players and earning that much C4P consistantly, the >25% boost for priority club, especially for more than 3 months, I think will offset the smaller original amount.

Effectively, what it does is it means that 3,200 points and 3,800 points no longer get the same amount, which makes sense. If you aren't earning the bare minimum for the next level, then it doesn't work out so badly.

Feel free to correct me on anything if I'm wrong.

GLifUlose

Let me introduce myself.  I am Stephen, a high-volume micro stakes player who makes his home floating between 40nl and 100nl 6max tables on Sky.  I write a blog at http://www.groomi.net and I have been happily playing on Sky since around July.  Professionally since August.

Sky Poker was my choice of site for a number of reasons, one of which was their generous cash4points promotion and it's easily achievable Priority Club based on the previous month's play.

To see why I am annoyed about sky's deceptive reduction in bonus payments lets analyze the system as I did when I first came to the site.  Obviously back then I didn't have information such as points earned per hand or rake paid per point but I have managed to hash-together some figures which I believe to be very close to accurate and will happily admit aren't if the people at Sky wish to prove me wrong.  Either way, the figures I use are just so that we can get some tangible figures and whatever we use the calculations will still have us worse off from Jan 1st as the rake amount isn't changing.

So, I play 50nl and estimate that I earn around 0.33 points per hand.
I also estimated that £1 paid in rake = 6 points. (tournament players recieve 10 per £1 but I will use cash game stats as I am a cash game player)

My first solid month was while I was working part-time.  I couldn't play so much volume so I achieved the bare minimum.  10,000 points to get me into the "Priority Club".  Lets review the figures under both systems for Month 1:

Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66
Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £275/£260
Rakeback % (Old/New) = 16.5%/15.6%

Now, the second month we are now Priority customers.  We are still working part-time however so again only make 10,000 points.  Lets do the figures:


Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66
Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £343.75/£280
Rakeback % (Old/New) = 20.6%/16.8%

So for our demonstrative player he is already £78.75 out of pocket by month 2, or 12.7%

Month three arrives and we play the same 10,000 points worth.

Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66
Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £343.75/£310
Rakeback % (Old/New) = 20.6%/18.6%

So after three whole months of play and paying £1.6k more rake than the old system required we still aren't recieving the same monthly VIP reward as our 2011 player.  Infact we are losing out on 2% rakeback per month and recieving 10% less per month.

So we have proven that a low-level grinder is being taken for 10% per month in 2012.  To players such as me who have chosen to support sky by playing here and for whom this is their only source of income, this is the equivalent of taking a 10% pay-cut.

December 2011 has been MY biggest raking month.  I will be making 24,000 poker points and so far have made 22,2xx.  Assuming that I make 24,000 this month and in January lets see the real-world effect on a player who rakes enough to be keeping the lights and heating on in the Sky Poker office.

Rake Paid: 24,000/6 = £4,000
Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £1,250/£1,152
Rakeback % (Old/New) = 31.3%/28.8%

So I recieve £1,152 instead of £1,250 for next month's £4k rake.  This is a 7.8% pay-cut of the majority of my income and Sky now retains an extra £98.  That is to say I make more each month from C4P than from in-game winnings.  To view it as Rakeback% we are now being given 2.5% less rakeback.  This now makes sky one of the least competitive euro sites for grinders.

And to add insult to injury Sky are now encouraging rakeback grinding via their rake races (Full House promotion).  Assuming this promo leads to some people reaching 60,000 points this month lets also analyze the new VIP system's effect upon their Cash4Points:

Rake Paid: 60,000/6 = £10,000
Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £4,062.5/£3,900
Rakeback % (Old/New) = 40.6%/39%

So as you can see the new changes are negative for all players from microstakes to high-volume grinders.

I suspect that I will be spending January away from sky searching for a new network/site so hopefully the impact won't be felt for the 50nl players who's winrates will increase to compensate .

Please give answers Sky as to why you have made these changes.
Stephen G
GLifUlose

paythedr24

In Response to C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Let me introduce myself.  I am Stephen, a high-volume micro stakes player who makes his home floating between 40nl and 100nl 6max tables on Sky.  I write a blog at http://www.groomi.net and I have been happily playing on Sky since around July.  Professionally since August. Sky Poker was my choice of site for a number of reasons, one of which was their generous cash4points promotion and it's easily achievable Priority Club based on the previous month's play. To see why I am annoyed about sky's deceptive reduction in bonus payments lets analyze the system as I did when I first came to the site.  Obviously back then I didn't have information such as points earned per hand or rake paid per point but I have managed to hash-together some figures which I believe to be very close to accurate and will happily admit aren't if the people at Sky wish to prove me wrong.  Either way, the figures I use are just so that we can get some tangible figures and whatever we use the calculations will still have us worse off from Jan 1st as the rake amount isn't changing. So, I play 50nl and estimate that I earn around 0.33 points per hand. I also estimated that £1 paid in rake = 6 points. (tournament players recieve 6 per £1 but I will use cash game stats as I am a cash game player) My first solid month was while I was working part-time.  I couldn't play so much volume so I achieved the bare minimum.  10,000 points to get me into the "Priority Club".  Lets review the figures under both systems for Month 1: Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66 Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £275/£260 Rakeback % (Old/New) = 16.5%/15.6% Now, the second month we are now Priority customers.  We are still working part-time however so again only make 10,000 points.  Lets do the figures: Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66 Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £343.75/£280 Rakeback % (Old/New) = 20.6%/16.8% So for our demonstrative player he is already £78.75 out of pocket by month 2, or 12.7% Month three arrives and we play the same 10,000 points worth. Rake Paid: 10,000/6 = £1,666.66 Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £343.75/£310 Rakeback % (Old/New) = 20.6%/18.6% So after three whole months of play and paying £1.6k more rake than the old system required we still aren't recieving the same monthly VIP reward as our 2011 player.  Infact we are losing out on 2% rakeback per month and recieving 10% less per month. So we have proven that a low-level grinder is being taken for 10% per month in 2012.  To players such as me who have chosen to support sky by playing here and for whom this is their only source of income, this is the equivalent of taking a 10% pay-cut. December 2011 has been MY biggest raking month.  I will be making 24,000 poker points and so far have made 22,2xx.  Assuming that I make 24,000 this month and in January lets see the real-world effect on a player who rakes enough to be keeping the lights and heating on in the Sky Poker office. Rake Paid: 24,000/6 = £4,000 Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £1,250/£1,152 Rakeback % (Old/New) = 31.3%/28.8% So I recieve £1,152 instead of £1,250 for next month's £4k rake.  This is a 7.8% pay-cut of the majority of my income and Sky now retains an extra £98.  That is to say I make more each month from C4P than from in-game winnings.  To view it as Rakeback% we are now being given 2.5% less rakeback.  This now makes sky one of the least competitive euro sites for grinders. And to add insult to injury Sky are now encouraging rakeback grinding via their rake races (Full House promotion).  Assuming this promo leads to some people reaching 60,000 points this month lets also analyze the new VIP system's effect upon their Cash4Points: Rake Paid: 60,000/6 = £10,000 Bonus Recieved (Old/New) = £4,062.5/£3,900 Rakeback % (Old/New) = 40.6%/39% So as you can see the new changes are negative for all players from microstakes to high-volume grinders. I suspect that I will be spending January away from sky searching for a new network/site so hopefully the impact won't be felt for the 50nl players who's winrates will increase to compensate . Please give answers Sky as to why you have made these changes. Stephen G GLifUlose
Posted by GLifUlose

Very good post mate and although i dont doubt you for one moment i would still say that even if the new c4p works out exactly as you have said in your post you would still be very hard pushed to find any site offering as good a rakeback scheme as the one on offer here.

The orig c4p was a fantastic offer from sky and the new one even if not so good is still very very hard to beat so even though you say you will be looking for something better out there i fully expect to see you on the sky tables throughout 2112

Good luck whatever your choice though mate and once again nice orig post.

sikas

i think pingu is right on the 'money' here...(ahem)

yeah the milestones as we know it in the old system are worth less, but overall i think its a fairer system

as for 'GlIFuLose'  im curious how u worked out £1 of rake = 6 points, not having a go, i tried to work it out once n couldnt fathom it

tiercel

I f they are giving something back why complain. They don't have to give rakeback and it doesn't bother me one way or the other except that if they gave a straight rake percentage to all players and forget the points everyone would get a fair slice. Or even had rake at a level where they don't need to offer it at all. Me , I don't count points , nor do I use them . I am here to play and that is it. I am ahead financially and I don't feel ripped off . Rakeback does not make a site - esp. this one.

Sky_DanR

Hi guys,

It's understandable that the first examples you look at are the totals that you are used to aiming for like 10,000, 24,000 etc and under the new system these are the ones where you are likely to be slightly worse off. However, as we have redistributed the cash elsewhere the values in between are where you are going to start seeing the benefits. Instead of not getting rewarded for points in between tiers it is now worthwhile playing beyond and earning cash for each point.

A few other "random" examples for Priority guys - 22,000 points incl. boost would have got you £937.50 - Under the new system and the 3+ rate you'd get £968. Another one in between tiers - 18,000 points before w/boost would have got you £625 - New 3+ system= £720.

I've spoken to GLifuLose about the new system. Please correct me if I'm wrong but he seems a little happier....

If any other Priority Club members want to chat about the system or have any concerns - give me a call or email me on the priority contact details.

Cheers
Dan

Poker_Fail

I have only just woken up and saw the neww C4P, I came straight onto the forum ready to make a thread if someone hadn't already.

This comse the day after that horrid failure of a Main Event?

I guess there's no point in playing on Sky as much anymore

TWRAMYEP

meh looks alright to me, a few pennies either way.

stien

What is the point of being in priority now?? So the 25% boost goes for what?? Great way to reward your best customers, looks like a bad beat to me!!

So, what's new?

1. You will get paid for EVERY point you earn
2. The more points you earn, the more pence you will earn per point
3. Earn more poker points when you play in the 8pm Main Event each night
4. Earn over 10,000 poker points and gain entry into The Priority Club with an enhanced points to pence rate
5. Earn 10,000 points for 3 consecutive months and receive THE BEST points to pence rate available

Please note these enhancements to Cash for Points are in place of the 25% Priority Club boost. December's Cash for Points will include the boost where applicable and the new scale will commence from January 1st.

Poker_Fail

I guess the 3+ month priority system might motivate me to actualy grind that much as the bonus is better there.

DOHHHHHHH

Scrap c4p altogether imo!  

More trouble than it's worth !!!

MAXALLY

The 'Priory' club will not change. All new members welcome and looked after, no matter how much or how little you consume alcohol!

Happy New Year!   hic

☺

stien

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Scrap c4p altogether imo!   More trouble than it's worth !!!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

No just stop changing it, it wasn't broken so why fix it?

The rake race for priority should have been headed Dear sam1986 - £3,000 of goodies just for you lol. If sky want to give obvious targets 3 grands worth of free stuff just do it, it's your money, but don't dress it up as a comp we can all win. 

corbett04

Glifulose makes a good point here imo. Btw r u really paying that much rake if u make 10k points?

5toneFace

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Hi guys, It's understandable that the first examples you look at are the totals that you are used to aiming for like 10,000, 24,000 etc and under the new system these are the ones where you are likely to be slightly worse off. However, as we have redistributed the cash elsewhere the values in between are where you are going to start seeing the benefits. Instead of not getting rewarded for points in between tiers it is now worthwhile playing beyond and earning cash for each point. A few other "random" examples for Priority guys - 22,000 points incl. boost would have got you £937.50 - Under the new system and the 3+ rate you'd get £968. Another one in between tiers - 18,000 points before w/boost would have got you £625 - New 3+ system= £720. I've spoken to GLifuLose about the new system. Please correct me if I'm wrong but he seems a little happier.... If any other Priority Club members want to chat about the system or have any concerns - give me a call or email me on the priority contact details. Cheers Dan
Posted by Prio_Dan

lol, when you say "random" you mean examples that make the  new system look better.

stien

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : lol, when you say "random" you mean examples that make the  new system look better.
Posted by 5toneFace

+1 nice point 5toneface

djblacke04

Love it, they give u money for playing,and yet you moan....i goto casino every week and they never give me a penny back

scotty77

I suspect that I will be spending January away from sky searching for a new network/site so hopefully the impact won't be felt for the 50nl players who's winrates will increase to compensate .

Cheers for that GL.  The amount I gave you in the last 3/4 days is pretty annoying.

SHANXTA

basically translates as play more hands to get the same as we gave u b4..... great

scotty77

Dan - will people who have been in priority club for the last 6 months or so go immediately to into the priority+ structure?

SolarCarro

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Love it, they give u money for playing,and yet you moan....i goto casino every week and they never give me a penny back
Posted by djblacke04

+1 Cash 4 Points is a bonus, it wasn't there when i first played on Sky and casinos run similar points cards promotions but not as good as solid cash each month

Also disagree with the title "deceptively" - Sky are not deceiving anybody, they have made some changes and they are clearly explained.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : No just stop changing it, it wasn't broken so why fix it? The rake race for priority should have been headed Dear sam1986 - £3,000 of goodies just for you lol. If sky want to give obvious targets 3 grands worth of free stuff just do it, it's your money, but don't dress it up as a comp we can all win. 
Posted by stien

Yea was only messing, c4p to me is like 2 buy ins on a busy month, so scrapping it would be +ev for me with loadsa grinders going elsewhere.

Understand everyones frustrations though.

------------------------------------

If people from sky are gonna take questions on this thread about the changes...

Are there plans to include sngs in the new happy hours in the new year?

pryce6

Got to assume we got straight into the 3+ rate...

On the 'race for points' it is pretty pointless as most have no shot. If Sky were to say to me, if you make 30k points we will give you an ipad, tv etc then we're talking...

pryce6

And on the new system, It's obviously better if you are stuck between old points milestones - you get more than you would have before without doing your nuts trying to get 3k points in 2 days.

However the majority of examples we are going to be worse off, I'm expecting some serious further benefits on being in Priority Club to come...not just giving £3k worth of goodies to LolRaise and Sam.

Sky_DanR

Yeh - if you have been in The Priority Club for the past 3 months then you will be straight on the 3+ tier from January.

scotty77

ok cool Dan.  also Pryce6 in mentioning an iPad shocker....

Sky_Poker

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Our main aim in making the changes to cash for points was to make it fairer (you now get rewarded for each of the qualifying points) and clearer. We hope you agree this has been done.

We definitely are not trying to confuse or deceive anyone here - far from it. It is clear that there are certain examples where people will earn slightly more and others slightly less.

Starting at the bottom for the 500 - 999 tier, for example, where people previously got £5 no matter where you fell on this scale. Now, if we break it down like this, you can see some interesting comparisons:

500 points = £4.00 (worse)
550 points = £4.40 (worse)
600 points = £4.80 (worse)
650 points = £5.20 (better)
700 points = £5.60 (better)
750 points = £6.00 (better)
800 points = £6.40 (better)
850 points = £6.80 (better)
900 points = £7.20 (better)
950 points = £7.60 (better)

In this case, which is admittedly just one range of examples, 7 out of the 10 are more generous and someone who gets 950 points now gets more than someone earning 500 points, which we think is fairer. We have been given lots of feedback in the past to say this too.

There is still an incentive for people to 'move-up' the tiers as it gets more and more rewarding (more pence per point), including Priority offers too.

Do please also remember that we will have other offers ongoing help add to peoples rewards - the recent Happy Hours being a good example. There will be more things like this coming, giving you the chance to earn extra points.

We also have exciting plans for other exciting promotions and giveaways too!

Thank you for everyone for taking the time to give us feedback, we appreciate it.

Thanks
Sky Poker

pryce6

Well if you're going to rob me of £100 quid a month I expect an Ipad after 5 months

1267

Pretty ridic this i think,  even with the top rate thingy .. every example i worked out i was worse off !  (obviously dan has picked out a FEW examples where we are better off, im sure theres alot more we are worse off ..  ) 

If it aint broke , dont fix it is my opinion.  Should have just kept the old way, so so so less confusing.

Shuld have just added more tieres, e.g  9k 13k 18k 22k , you get the jist  ....

Not a fan of these sky changes lately ... Spend more time o  re-sizeable tablesss !!!

hurst05

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Well if you're going to rob me of £100 quid a month I expect an Ipad after 5 months
Posted by pryce6

smug talk mr 8k points man

nmipeis

it seems to me like sky are saying that we better make priority 3months in a row so that we can still be worse off than we were previously, which sucks.

and to every1 who is saying c4p is a bonus and we should just be grateful, ur just flat out wrong, its something that sky NEED to have in order to have any traffic. without it they simply couldnt compete with the other sites, esp when u bare in mind that the software is literally the worst around, and they do not belong to a network.

all in all im a pretty disappointed that im gunna earn less and need to play more consistantly in order to do that