C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players

1267

Propa unfair on people who work away etc..      e.g Work away for 3 weeks. Dont make 10k.  Then havta spend 3 months gettin bad on the top pay, to then go and work away again    lol.

drumahai05

SKY is a business at the end of the day and as to be profitable, if you look at their average return its about 31% before costs. its probably about 15% after cost (NET) or there about not bad not good. I have my moan about the lack of regulation in the game, or should i say regulation we can see and understand. but sky is a business that needs to make a profit that works,and at the same time give us a game that meets our needs, a balancing act that as its ups and downs that's life or business. so im happy, but would like to see regulation of the game that's open to all to check out.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

SKY is a business at the end of the day and as to be profitable, if you look at their average return its about 31% before costs. its probably about 15% after cost (NET) or there about not bad not good. I have my moan about the lack of regulation in the game, or should i say regulation we can see and understand. but sky is a business that needs to make a profit that works,and at the same time give us a game that meets our needs, a balancing act that as its ups and downs that's life or business. so im happy, but would like to see regulation of the game that's open to all to check out.
Posted by drumahai05

Nice post mate but i had to LOL at the end bit , very very wishful thinking sweetie xxx

ACEGOONER

It does get rid of the ridiculous situation where if rakeback is important to you that you have to put in serious hours to get 4k between thresholds from 12k upwards. 

I can see skys stance on this, they are paying out on points you would normally lose between thresholds and im sure people dont just stop playing on 10k, 12k, 16k etc etc at the end of the month. This means that either they keep the rakeback the same and take a hit to profits, or using the same budget smooth things out. 

Ive done loads of research on skys rakeback for sng's, I looked at rakeback sites and my conclusion was 33/34% on 10k points (for priority club) is highly competitive, losing one or two per cent doesnt make that much difference. 

GLifulose, I read your blog, very interesting reading. I wont cry if you leave sky (as you are a pain in the backside at the tables!) but you have the game to make money a low stakes cash. Good luck whatever you decide to do. 

scotty77

without it they simply couldnt compete with the other sites, esp when u bare in mind that the software is literally the worst around, and they do not belong to a network.

not belonging to a network is a good thing.  do you know how badly most of the network skins have been battered the past couple of years?  some of the biggest names on the UK high street with massive brands are having a tough time making networked poker be profitable.

and the software really isn't the worse.  try boss media/dtd...then come back and retract that statement.

i haven't yet had a chance to crunch the numbers myself...I think the one big positive to come from this is how the tiers have been dropped.  they were very annoying IMO.  personally as part of TSP I haven't received the 25pc boost for the last 9 months so won't see a change there so I will probably end up being slightly better off but its gonna be close.

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

And on the new system, It's obviously better if you are stuck between old points milestones - you get more than you would have before without doing your nuts trying to get 3k points in 2 days. However the majority of examples we are going to be worse off, I'm expecting some serious further benefits on being in Priority Club to come...not just giving £3k worth of goodies to LolRaise and Sam.
Posted by pryce6

i think sam is the only person who can get 60k+ c4ps in a month. i havent got 60k in the last 3 months combined

FlashFlush

From what I can see, the person this will be worst for is Sky. By not having stages to aim for you can play as much or as little as you like. I have played a lot over Christmas to make it back into Priority so YES I have played more to reach a goal, but other than the 10k priority status there is no benefit in reaching the next milestone now. Many times I have been in a situation (and I'm sure everyone has) where you need to play that little bit more to reach the next stage and not miss out on your next payout level. Well whats the point now?

Rakeback as a whole is a small % of all the money paid / earnt / lost. If you look how much money the grinders have on the table / pay in rake is frightening. So to lose out on a few % of an already pretty small figure will be barely noticable.

I appreciate for people like Stephen and many others who's job it is to play poker it can upset them, but when you look at it in perspective its actually a very small amount.

stien

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

Pretty ridic this i think,  even with the top rate thingy .. every example i worked out i was worse off !  (obviously dan has picked out a FEW examples where we are better off, im sure theres alot more we are worse off ..  )  If it aint broke , dont fix it is my opinion.  Should have just kept the old way, so so so less confusing. Shuld have just added more tieres, e.g  9k 13k 18k 22k , you get the jist  .... Not a fan of these sky changes lately ... Spend more time o  re-sizeable tablesss !!!
Posted by 1267

+1 AND YES Spend more time on re-sizeable tables !!! 

scotty77

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : Shock - scotty brown nose 77 comes out in support of sky, no wonder your still on SPT and soon to be a lone analyst, lets hope you've discovered brevity by then. Obv your right and many others are wrong. I had it explained to me and I still can't see why they have changed it. As for the rake race its a sam benefit simple as, I'm with Pryce if they set it at 30k game on, at 60k whats the point.
Posted by stien

I really don't understand what your problem is with me.

a) I haven't had the chance to look at the numbers myself

b) I realise that on some levels there will be people who are worse off.....I trust GLifulose' maths and in those examples its clear that people will lose some bonus money with the changes.

c) However no one can argue that some people will be better off

d) One of the most common complaints about the C4P was the big gap between the tiers...which meant it forced people to grind at the last few days of the month. 

Pryce6 made a good point about the added value for C4P targets and I'm sure that Dan will take them on board.

AcidMan27

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : Shock - scotty brown nose 77 comes out in support of sky, no wonder your still on SPT and soon to be a lone analyst, lets hope you've discovered brevity by then. Obv your right and many others are wrong. I had it explained to me and I still can't see why they have changed it. As for the rake race its a sam benefit simple as, I'm with Pryce if they set it at 30k game on, at 60k whats the point.
Posted by stien

They've probably changed it because a hell of alot of players complained about being stuck between payout levels.

These same players also complained that the higher bankrolled and higher points scorers got looked after too well.

I'm a microstakes player and tbh i've never complained that you higher rolled and bigger points grinders got looked after because I appreciate you pay a hell of alot more rake than me so deserve more c4p.

But no matter what Sky do here they're always going to be the villain.

GLifUlose

Firstly let me apologise for the tone of the subject title and perhaps the OP.  I haven't re-read it.  I suspect it was quite negative though based on having Dan on the phone 20 minutes after posting it.  Dan and I had a nice chat this morning where he asked about my concernes and gave his opinion and he posted above shortly after.

@sikas - I don't know for sure.  I am sure if you asked sky they would tell you though.  Or atleast give you some stats like # hands played etc

@Dan - I can see that for people too dumb to have organised their play based on not  getting 80% of the way into a VIP tier and being unable to achieve the last 20%.  I appreciate that but for me, the other 7 people who generate more rake than me and anyone with any sense we are playing knowing that we are playing for 20.6%/31.3% or 40.6% rakeback.  We play till x points and then stop.  I appreciate that the people who didn't stop after reaching a tier for some reason are rewarded now (well they aren't, they are just no longer being punished for being dumb) but now no matter what you do, nobody is able to achieve 20.6/31.3 or 40.6 percent rakeback.
If you can afford to give me 31.3% rakeback on £4,000 then why not give me 31.3% on £4,500 instead of the 28.8% that you get under the new system (5.2p per point 24,000-27,999)

@EvilPingu - Yes some people are being given larger £ amounts but noone is getting a higher % rakeback.  Sky is winning here...

@Corbett04 - I think so.  It does seem like alot sadly

@scotty77 - lolol, al donations are welcome in this tough economy

@pryce6 - You laugh but this is basically all it is for you and I, a £1.2k/year pay cut (well £1176)

offshoot

lol stein yeah lets set the target at 30k so you, me and everyman and his dog can win, just to be nice and so little old you gets 3k worth of stuff! If Sam is the only person who can get 60k in a month then surely Sam deserves the stuff more than you and everyone else? The person(s) who rakes the most get the prize, hardly an unfair concept.

1267

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : I really don't understand what your problem is with me. a) I haven't had the chance to look at the numbers myself b) I realise that on some levels there will be people who are worse off.....I trust GLifulose' maths and in those examples its clear that people will lose some bonus money with the changes. c) However no one can argue that some people will be better off d) One of the most common complaints about the C4P was the big gap between the tiers...which meant it forced people to grind at the last few days of the month.  Pryce6 made a good point about the added value for C4P targets and I'm sure that Dan will take them on board.
Posted by scotty77

I really don't understand why they just didn't add many more tiers.   I've number crunched about 20 secnarios, and in only 2 i will be better off.  18k and 22k.   So, basically its going to be the same old problem, do i stick on 18k, or grind for 22k,  But now i can't use my sick day to get there , sighhh.

I think its pretty clear that many many more people are against sky on this one. but hey ho, life goes on.

GLifUlose

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

lol stein yeah lets set the target at 30k so you, me and everyman and his dog can win, just to be nice and so little old you gets 3k worth of stuff! If Sam is the only person who can get 60k in a month then surely Sam deserves the stuff more than you and everyone else? The person(s) who rakes the most get the prize, hardly an unfair concept.
Posted by offshoot

I think the point is that a rake race on such a small site with one reg who plays all the limits is a bit unfair

offshoot

how is it unfair exactly? Im pretty sure theres at least 5 people that can win that prize at a minimum btw.

stien

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

lol stein yeah lets set the target at 30k so you, me and everyman and his dog can win, just to be nice and so little old you gets 3k worth of stuff! If Sam is the only person who can get 60k in a month then surely Sam deserves the stuff more than you and everyone else? The person(s) who rakes the most get the prize, hardly an unfair concept.
Posted by offshoot

I will explain for you.... a rake race is designed to create increased rake for the site is it not? However if everyone knows who the winner will be before the start where is the incentive to compete? Simply put it's a fail as a promotion unless the concept is to get £3k worth of goodies to sam ASAP. I'm not having a go at sam btw just the flawed concept.

What's next a sprint race v Usain Bolt first place gets a car!!!!

offshoot

because there can be more than one winner, and im pretty postive there will be.

scotty77

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

because there can be more than one winner, and im pretty postive there will be.
Posted by offshoot

this.  i play 50/100nl and have had 4k C4P days.

just get the grind on man 60k is achievable if you can 12-16 table

TommyD

Evening Ladies and Gentlemen

1)  Here is a graph I have wasted a few minutes of my life on representing C4Ps old against new between 500 and 9999 points.




2)  If this change happened the other way, there would be the same argument from the same people.  People would complain that they will have to squeeze in more hours or lose money.

3)  You are not losing money, you are receiving less of a bonus.  A bonus is not a right.  I have been worried about C4P getting scrapped since it was started because I do not regard it as an automatic part of my future roll.

4)  Original poster, explain the term 'deceptive' in this context please.

5)  Of course some people are going to lose out, by the same token some people will do better.  That's the nature of these things, any change of rakeback/bonuses have winners and losers.  That's life.  Feel free to deal with it.

6)  I have no personal preference to either system.

7)  I find it sad that posts that start aimed at having fun or people looking for help get minimal feedback but the chance of potentially receiving £5 less in a monthly bonus has torches lit, flame bait laid, agendas advanced and feuds continued.  I do question if every member of the forum realise what not only a forum but what a life should be about.

hurst05

@glifulose - playing up until a point where you achieve a certain c4p goal is IMO more dumb than to keep playing (unless ofc you achieve this late on the last day). why stop surely you would want to keep playing in order to make more money (more so if you are running well, less so if you are running bad). although im undecided on the new c4p system myself, some months it will benefit me, others not so. just wait to see the results.

JingleMa

Just spoke to Sky Adam on the Priority Line and he admitted that "budget constraints" have lowered the c4p.

As I don't play cash and am not very good, I rely on c4p as a large part of my winnings so this is def a bit of a blow for me.

My goal for 2012 is to reach £2k for c4p - Under the old system I would have had to make 36000 points and would have got £2187.50 for that.

Under the new system, I only have to make 35715 points to make £2k - however:

I will only get £2016 for making the extra 685 points (upto 36k), making £171.50 less than under the old system.

Ah well - c'est la vie I guess, back to the grind!

GLifUlose

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

@glifulose - playing up until a point where you achieve a certain c4p goal is IMO more dumb than to keep playing (unless ofc you achieve this late on the last day). why stop surely you would want to keep playing in order to make more money (more so if you are running well, less so if you are running bad). although im undecided on the new c4p system myself, some months it will benefit me, others not so. just wait to see the results.
Posted by hurst05

Are you serious?  I decide at the beginning of the day/week/month or whatever what my volume target will be and I quit when I reach it.  As you should know this is a high variance game and therefore setting financial targets is dumb and will result in an unpredictable workload based on "running good or running bad" which brings me to your next point. 

"(more so if you are running well, less so if you are running bad)"
Are you kidding me here? You must be.  A good solid winning reg (that's a compliment btw) is talking about "riding the heater" and playing more when he is winning.  That is potentially one of the stupidest things I have read today.

offshoot

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : Are you serious?  I decide at the beginning of the day/week/month or whatever what my volume target will be and I quit when I reach it.  As you should know this is a high variance game and therefore setting financial targets is dumb and will result in an unpredictable workload based on "running good or running bad" which brings me to your next point.  "(more so if you are running well, less so if you are running bad)" Are you kidding me here? You must be.  A good solid winning reg (that's a compliment btw) is talking about "riding the heater" and playing more when he is winning.  That is potentially one of the stupidest things I have read today.
Posted by GLifUlose

um what, playing more when youre running good is the most obvious thing in the world. Youre gonna be playing a lot better when running good compared to when youre running bad.

scotty77

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players : Are you serious?  I decide at the beginning of the day/week/month or whatever what my volume target will be and I quit when I reach it.  As you should know this is a high variance game and therefore setting financial targets is dumb and will result in an unpredictable workload based on "running good or running bad" which brings me to your next point.  "(more so if you are running well, less so if you are running bad)" Are you kidding me here? You must be.  A good solid winning reg (that's a compliment btw) is talking about "riding the heater" and playing more when he is winning.  That is potentially one of the stupidest things I have read today.
Posted by GLifUlose

I think what hurst means is when we are running good/on a heater than we are gonna be more confident and thus play better which makes perfect sense really.

GLifUlose

I hope this is a level

CrazyBen23

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

I hope this is a level
Posted by GLifUlose

init, wen im tilting to max and playin horribly i love to open 10 tables and spew my money asap

offshoot

In Response to Re: C4P Changes - Sky deceptively lowers bonuses and rakeback for ALL players:

I hope this is a level
Posted by GLifUlose

 
What are you on about?

GLifUlose

I've dumped off a tonne of money this month but I haven't played any less.  If you go on a 20bi downer at the beginning of a month what do you do quit?  No, you carry on and win it all back

offshoot

no what you do when your down a ton of buyins is you quit. You then come back when youre no longer tilting and try and play well, if you run bad, you quit. Once you start running good again you play longer session because youre playing closer to your A game. Common sense.

GLifUlose

I have no stop loss and I try to play as close to tiltless as possible. 

I have a -10bi session, i dust myself off and go grab a drink, take 20mins and come straight back.  I appreciate what you are saying but I think I have gotten past that point and just play whatever, win or lose.  Tilt is for the weak ☺