FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?

MAXALLY

Cliffs - Late night MTT. Reads are one player is fairly solid while other is splashing around in a few pots. Solid player I would put on Ax hands and possible over pairs.

I was 100% calling the first all in, but then tank folded when the other chips went in.

Right?/wrong?/had pot odds to call?....

Please discuss as I know FT play is one of my major leaks/weaknesses.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancezarro Small blind  1500.00 1500.00 49622.50 MAXALLY Big blind  3000.00 4500.00 23250.00  Your hole cards 9 9    THEROCK573 All-in  26627.50 31127.50 0.00 zarro Call  25127.50 56255.00 24495.00 MAXALLY Fold     zarro Show A A    THEROCK573 Show A A    Flop  10 9 10    Turn  7    River  Q    zarro Win Two Pairs, Aces and 10s 28127.50  52622.50 THEROCK573 Win Two Pairs, Aces and 10s 28127.50  28127.50

lisa1962

I agree with your first instinct. Easy call into one person, easy fold into two. The odds of you being ahead of 2 players in this spot is relatively low, the odds of having to dodge at least 3 different over cards is extremely high (eg AK vs AQ), and the odds of you being behind to at least one over pair is in my opinion better than evens. Lay it down and wait for a spot where you can be the aggressor

beaneh

easy snap HU.

assign ranges to the two players, look at the odds you are getting see if it's close between call fold. fold is fine. though obv this time it's awful as you would have won a 3 way allin....

DOHHHHHHH

Gotta be a call if the other players are playing anywhere close to 'well'?

I know rock is a winning player so he should be shoving close to a perfect range? Which is way wider than just Ax and pairs. 

Equity Win Tie

BU 29.02% 27.95% 1.06% { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q9s+, JTs, A2o+, K8o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o }

SB 28.74% 27.59% 1.15% { 22+, A2s+, KJs+, A5o+, KJo+, QJo }

BB 42.24% 41.97% 0.27% { 99 }

Might have given the sb too wide a range, knock a few %'s off if you think I have. 

Still looks a call to me though. Dunno how/if ICM and pay jumps etc effects it. Probably not enough to make it a fold I wouldn't have thought, but happy to be corrected/educated. 

Dunno where pokerstove has gone, this new toy takes aggggges  

beaneh

sbs range is miles off. 22-66,A2-AT probably.

remember there is no antes, so btn shoving 9 to win 1.5 not [1.5 + 6*(~1/5*bb)]

nickd49931

All maths aside, the fact he just calls instead of shipping it all in looks pretty scary. Good fold bad timing imo. 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

All maths aside, the fact he just calls instead of shipping it all in looks pretty scary. Good fold bad timing imo. 
Posted by nickd49931

This is a very strong point IMO. Other than it looks like we're the shorter stack so no need to raise. 

MAXALLY

Cheers for the responses folks.

@lisa. Yeah, I do think my 1st instinct was correct thinking back now, and the fold was the right play.

@beany and Doh. I honestly do not understand the odds and maths involved and I am still unsure how you guys would put all that in place during the hand? 15 secs is not much time to work it all out IMHO but thanks for your input. 

@nick. Great point and I now fully agree with it. TY.

beaneh

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

Cheers for the responses folks. @lisa. Yeah, I do think my 1st instinct was correct thinking back now, and the fold was the right play. @beany and Doh. I honestly do not understand the odds and maths involved and I am still unsure how you guys would put all that in place during the hand? 15 secs is not much time to work it all out IMHO but thanks for your input.  @nick. Great point and I now fully agree with it. TY.

Posted by MAXALLY

 

 

this isn't a case of something you do whilst playing. now you have had the decision. you look at it and say I think my opponents have this range of hands, right I have an easy decision to continue with so and so hands, I have an easy fold with so and so, and with xy and z I think it is close between call or fold. 

 

So in this case, you think call TT+/AKo+  so you are saying 99/TT/AQ are 'close' because they are your current borderline.

 

Then you go outside game time and look at a) the amount you have to call in this case 23000 ish, b) the amount there is in the pot thereby your pot odds, so amount in pot- 56000. 23:56  (BorinMod! ty. 23/(23+56) =~.29 (*100 to get %) i.e. 29% equity required for this to be a break-even call. 

 

You then take the ranges you assigned to your opponents at the time you played the hand, put those ranges into poker stove and see what equity your hand has. Check 'how far' in terms of stronger and weaker you can go to move the equity to 29%.

 

You might have thought TT was close and called JJ+ and the stoves will show it gets closer with 99 for example and you will know you have been slightly too tight against those ranges in hands you play in future.

If you included the payouts then you could also allow for ICM considerations.

 

Geddit?

 

 

 

Ty to loner for correcting my 'intentional mistakes to check you're checking'.....

BorinLoner

What beaneh said apart from your break even is about 29%.

23:56 = (23/79) x 100 = 29% 

beaneh

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

What beaneh said apart from your break even is about 29%. 23:56 = (23/79) x 100 = 29% 
Posted by BorinLoner

lol maffs is hard shoulda put all my steps to not make mistakes, ty.

thejudge10

  should it not be( 79/23 ) 100/ =29.15%

         lol

beaneh

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

  should it not be( 79/23 ) 100/ =29.15%          lol
Posted by thejudge10

it's the amount to call divided by the amount in the pot after the new bet. That multiplied by 100 gives the percentage figure.

thejudge10

          0.04%

       lol

MattBates

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it? : lol maffs is hard shoulda put all my steps to not make mistakes, ty.
Posted by beaneh

If you dont put your workings down you cannot get credit if the end answer is wrong....please report to Mr Dyer and do 100 lines of "I must do full workings if I want to get maximum marks"

beaneh

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it? : If you dont put your workings down you cannot get credit if the end answer is wrong....please report to Mr Dyer and do 100 lines of "I must do full workings if I want to get maximum marks"
Posted by MattBates

I also forgot to write 'ANS' and underline my answer, my teacher is going to kill me.

thejudge10

   So now we agree that he,s getting the ods to call,so do we call or fold ?

  As its the final table and were cashing anyway,i think we hav to call.

 so by folding were hoping to ladder up to 2nd and shouting for the big stack,

 if the big stack wins the hand were nearly 1/4 in chips.

 As it was correct play pre but wrong post lol

 but with 10 bbs do we get a better spot

 now we have 8bbs, 6 orbits, 18 hands  do we get a better spot,are we shoving with marginal hands into un opened pots  ?

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

   So now we agree that he,s getting the ods to call,so do we call or fold ?   As its the final table and were cashing anyway,i think we hav to call.  so by folding were hoping to ladder up to 2nd and shouting for the big stack,  if the big stack wins the hand were nearly 1/4 in chips.  As it was correct play pre but wrong post lol  but with 10 bbs do we get a better spot  now we have 8bbs, 6 orbits, 18 hands  do we get a better spot,are we shoving with marginal hands into un opened pots  ?
Posted by thejudge10

I thought we all agreed the fold was ok?

Surely a better spot would be a hand where we shove 1st rather than call two all ins?

I still dont get the maffs.....but TommyD was my teacher #nuffsaid

Lambert180

Well it's basically a treble up for you to get it in pre (and win) roughly speaking. So if you were 40% favourite to treble your money in any bet, you'd do that all day long You just gotta work out how much of a favourite/underdog you are

thejudge10

 fold is fine,so is the call

 now we are short,do we push nxt hand as were btn,or if we fold and our blinds are under constant attack what do we do??

when do the blinds go up,how many do we lose before we have no fold equity?

this hand i dont think there is a right or wrong way,but given all the variables i thik i call

if i lose im out in 3rd and cash

if i win the hand im in final 2 with a gd chip adv.

so i said there,s no right or wrong way

BorinLoner

I definitely call. With 8BB and tremendous pot odds, I think I'd have to call.

3-handed the short stack's range for shoving the button is going to be very wide. The caller can make that call with lots of Aces, decent Kings and maybe pairs lower than ours. There will be overpairs out there sometimes but the range ought to be alot wider than that.

The point that the caller's range is strengthened by the fact he hasn't re-shoved doesn't apply, simply because he's calling for an amount that covers your stack anyway. If you had money back, then flat-calling may strengthen his range but you don't so it doesn't.

You'd have to think there's something wrong with the logic that they can both have wide ranges for the fold to be good. Being "solid" takes on a different meaning when you're three-handed playing 9BB effective.

BorinLoner

If we choose to fold, then we have to shove the button with any two. With 8BB and 3-handed we should pretty much be doing this every orbit anyway, unless one of the other players is prone to call with a very wide range.

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

If we choose to fold, then we have to shove the button with any two. With 8BB and 3-handed we should pretty much be doing this every orbit anyway, unless one of the other players is prone to call with a very wide range.
Posted by BorinLoner

I do agree with this point and that is how I usually play. I did say in my OP that I was 100 % going with this hand after the 1st all in. The 2nd call, made me think again and I thought the fold was correct. I was possibly wrong and accept the notion that the call would also have been ok.

Here is the result/payout*.....

zarro	104000	1	£196.20
THEROCK573	0	2	£157.20
MAXALLY	0	3	£139.00

*some 1's may of been added to enhance the payouts

beaneh

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

If we choose to fold, then we have to shove the button with any two. With 8BB and 3-handed we should pretty much be doing this every orbit anyway, unless one of the other players is prone to call with a very wide range.
Posted by BorinLoner

we don't have to shove anywhere near as wide as any two, because there aren't antes.

thejudge10

   After this discussion does it make the situation any clearer lol

    well done nice cash

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it?:

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE,MTT, 3 Handed. Is this ALWAYS a fold or is there a case for going with it? : we don't have to shove anywhere near as wide as any two, because there aren't antes.
Posted by beaneh

With only 8BB there's 18.75% of our stack in the middle on every hand. I think we have to believe that we're going to be called really wide for a shove with any two to not be profitable, antes or no antes.

gruntex

Dont think you can ever call here, for both players to be going all in usually ther going to have a certain range , and you must be worried that at least 1 may have a higher pair than u and if not you will more than likely be up against overcards from ak aq even kq, 99 are never good againt 2 opponents, against just 1 opponent i think you probably have to call