how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?

liamboi11

hey guys one of my goals this year is to improve my mtt game but feel i`m too much of gambler in this format gettin my money in flip situations a lot and it not working out when it gets to crucial times in the tourney but here is two hands from different mtts and I won`t show results because feel they don`t matter just want to make sure i`m doing the right things.

this hand was in mini primo the utg raiser has been quite active until launder came to table and was just shovin allin every hand for like5 or 6 hands in a row what`s my move here mys stack size here is 8.4k?thoughts

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancekevcoke69Small blind 200.00200.006350.00launderBig blind 400.00600.0029625.00 Your hole cardsJJ   JIMMYSONRaise 1600.002200.006588.75mr_mcFold    supercrazyFold    liamboi11?????????

hand 2 was from the super roller and this is where I think my biggest leak is playing small pocket pairs, reads are on the blinds are dixo64 has just recently came to table but was playing quite passive just calling pre flop with ak,88 and raised pre with aa in the few hands I saw, small blind 3bet me huge me a couple of times because I was constantly raising the button/cutoff and said everytime they raised they had a big hand and only once I saw them 3bet with 99 pre early on other than that they were playing a tag style. also my stack size is 11.250k  so what to do from here?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancedixo64Small blind 300.00300.0032834.50lovejunkyBig blind 600.00900.008444.50 Your hole cards44   Barrie26Fold    HITMAN_RVFold    SharksbiteFold    liamboi11???????

Lambert180

Hand 1 Cos he's 4x'd UTG  from a small stack the best play is probably to fold imo but feel horrid with JJ. You can't call imo, you're never getting folds and you're probably never better than a flip.

Hand 2 - If he's stationing alot, I might just fold cos you only got 20xBB. If not, I'd min-raise/fold

thejudge10

  1st hand either a 3 bet shove or fold as u have 20bb

   2nd hand u hav 18 bb on button,s/b has 54bb,now the bb only has 14 bb,s

  so do you want to raise 2-3 bbs,and fold if you miss and some 1 leads into the pot with a c-bet,

 min raise IMO is a bad weak play,s/b think would call with 54 bbs,and bbs has the right stack to jam ,as he might percive the play to be weak.

flat call to hit your set with only 18 bbs ?

shove 18bbs to win 3bbs ?

Think a fold would be fine here.

thejudge10

    

    The 2nd hand also depends on how u want to play,post flop,

    Before you raise pre,you have to decide how ur gonna play post flop,

    You could rep a monster pair,so as i said depends how you plan to play post flop

   

    eg: raise pre, 1 caller,caller c-bets flop u shove,risky but looks strong.

    

    remember sometimes u dont need cards to win the hand

   hope this helps

BorinLoner

On the JJ hand, I know what you're saying; he's been jamming every other hand and now he's making it 4x, so does that make it a stronger range?

I think I'd assume that the answer is no, and that he's not jamming anymore because his stack has crossed the point that he's comfortable shoving with. Given that, I'd think his range is still very wide and I'd 3-bet all-in with a big smile on my face.

I may then think "You idiot! It's so obvious that he's got a big hand because he didn't shove! What were you thinking, BorinLoner?!"

I think it's a shove.

On the 44 I agree with Lambert that it's a min-raise-fold spot. I don't like shoving to pick up less than 10% of our stack in blinds and I don't want to call off 15BB hoping for a race. I think open-folding is best only if we think one of the blinds is intent on not folding to us, whether because of a dynamic or they're a station, etc. Even then, if it's the big stack, you can look to play the flop if they play fit or fold on the flop often - Higher variance, greater rewards.

Simply because the small blind has 3-bet a couple of times, we shouldn't be put off stealing. We have to decide if they're 3-betting enough to make stealing unprofitable in the long-run.

If the blinds are fairly weak I'd be stealing from the button with nearly 100% of hands so why not 44?

liamboi11

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

On the JJ hand, I know what you're saying; he's been jamming every other hand and now he's making it 4x, so does that make it a stronger range? I think I'd assume that the answer is no, and that he's not jamming anymore because his stack has crossed the point that he's comfortable shoving with. Given that, I'd think his range is still very wide and I'd 3-bet all-in with a big smile on my face. I may then think "You idiot! It's so obvious that he's got a big hand because he didn't shove! What were you thinking, BorinLoner?!" I think it's a shove. On the 44 I agree with Lambert that it's a min-raise-fold spot. I don't like shoving to pick up less than 10% of our stack in blinds and I don't want to call off 15BB hoping for a race. I think open-folding is best only if we think one of the blinds is intent on not folding to us, whether because of a dynamic or they're a station, etc. Even then, if it's the big stack, you can look to play the flop if they play fit or fold on the flop often - Higher variance, greater rewards. Simply because the small blind has 3-bet a couple of times, we shouldn't be put off stealing. We have to decide if they're 3-betting enough to make stealing unprofitable in the long-run. If the blinds are fairly weak I'd be stealing from the button with nearly 100% of hands so why not 44?
Posted by BorinLoner

sorry utg has been active all game 3x/4x pre but launder came to table like 6 hands before this hand and has shoved allin every hand so every1 knows what launder going to do but this guy still raises utg 4x do we still like shoving then?

and I will say what i did in the 2 hands when get some more thoughts.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts? : sorry utg has been active all game 3x/4x pre but launder came to table like 6 hands before this hand and has shoved allin every hand so every1 knows what launder going to do but this guy still raises utg 4x do we still like shoving then? and I will say what i did in the 2 hands when get some more thoughts.
Posted by liamboi11

Ah right. Sorry I misunderstood.

Well, if launder has only been open-shoving then I think I definitely 3-bet here. If the opponent has been opening for 4x often, then his range isn't necessarily strong and he can think it's unlikely that launder will 3-bet shove without a big hand.

If launder has been getting it in regardless of the action then the UTG player's range should be significantly stronger, assuming that he's good enough to even be thinking about ranges, etc. In that case it becomes a much closer decision. I probably shove either way to be honest. His opening range can't be tightened to the point of just being QQ+ and AK+, I think. I don't think folding is necessarily terrible if this is the dynamic, but I think shoving is still better.

thejudge10

If the blinds are fairly weak I'd be stealing from the button with nearly 100% of hands so why not 44?

i agree with this ,

but as you said,the bb has been 3 betting your raises huge a couple of times.do you call if he jams?

now that doesnt mean he,s gonna do it this time,but

the bb has an ideal 3 bet shove stack.

so im folding here

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

If the blinds are fairly weak I'd be stealing from the button with nearly 100% of hands so why not 44? i agree with this , but as you said,the bb has been 3 betting your raises huge a couple of times.do you call if he jams? now that doesnt mean he,s gonna do it this time,but the bb has an ideal 3 bet shove stack. so im folding here
Posted by thejudge10

The point I was trying to make earlier in my post is that it depends on the range we think he's going to be 3-betting with. If he's only 3-betting the top 30% of hands and folding the rest, then this is a good spot to min-raise-fold.

He's 3-bet "a couple of times" but that's not enough to establish a pattern. If we've seen him making a habit of this against other players too, or if it has happened several times then the fold may be best. As it is we have no information on whether those "couple of times" have been twice in ten orbits or every time we've tried to steal.

liamboi11

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts? : The point I was trying to make earlier in my post is that it depends on the range we think he's going to be 3-betting with. If he's only 3-betting the top 30% of hands and folding the rest, then this is a good spot to min-raise-fold. He's 3-bet "a couple of times" but that's not enough to establish a pattern. If we've seen him making a habit of this against other players too, or if it has happened several times then the fold may be best. As it is we have no information on whether those "couple of times" have been twice in ten orbits or every time we've tried to steal.
Posted by BorinLoner

regarding the 44 hand the small blind only 3bet me 3 times in just over 2 hours of play and I think pretty much raised from btn/co pretty a high percentage of the time but imo 3 times aint a lot and must defo be quite a narrow range don`t you think.

bearlyther

hand 1 get in in all day long

hand 2 min raise fold.

liamboi11

thanks for advice guys to let you know what i did 

hand 1-I flat knowing launder was shoving allin any 2 after launder shipped it the other guy took his time and called allin then I shipped hoping for a triple up, don`t know if it`s correct but wanted 2 try get big stack. launder had like 95os,utg raiser had aqos and binked and ace vs ma jacks.

hand 2-I was goin to min/fold but thought that be weak so I just shoved hoping to get some mid pairs and some broadway cards to fold and take the blinds but ended up getting snapped from sb with qq that ended my night. But I get it now im risking my whole stack for little reward and if called never in good shape flipping or dominated so yet again thanks for advice and for your help folks.

rancid

Just work out the calling/shoving ranges in each situation taking into account position & dynamics

liamboi11

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

Just work out the calling/shoving ranges in each situation taking into account position & dynamics
Posted by rancid

this is what I ain`t good at do I just poker stove and assign a range of hands etc.

bearlyther

Well played i like the flat if launder is jamming every hand with the intention of snapping them both off

rancid

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts? : this is what I ain`t good at do I just poker stove and assign a range of hands etc.
Posted by liamboi11

Essentially yes

Range of hands will depend on oppo, but if readless just use a tight range
Look at stack sizes, range will alter according to stack size - also in relation to position/dynamics

Before your action think about what if each oppo does various actions, how are you going to react
So if oppo A shoves I fold, if oppo B shoves I iso reshove - if oppo C shoves I call -- etc....

If you know what your doing before you even act then it becomes a lot easier


The hardest part is assigning correct ranges, dats poker folks - no easy answer

liamboi11

thanks bearly I did not know if that is correct thinking allin 3 way but tbh i`m not worried about launder hand and utg raise was very active all game so felt jj would play well aipf vs both thier ranges.

rancid- it`s weird I always have a plan when i`m playing cash for example if I raise pre then get 3bet I know if i`m 4bettin/callin/folding and what flops I want and what flops i Think my opponent won`t like etc.(I love cash)

But in this hand I never really knew what I was doing when came to me I knew if its folded round to me I was always raising, either shoving or like others have said min/fold( is it bad I never even considered folding lol) but felt the blinds would only really call with a monster hand and fold everything else. Am I wrong in thinking though I defo don`t want a call with my 44 just wanted to take it there and then?

but yeah would defo say blinds had tight range and was not playin back at me without the goods.

rancid

In Response to Re: how do you play pocket pairs in mtts?:

thanks bearly I did not know if that is correct thinking allin 3 way but tbh i`m not worried about launder hand and utg raise was very active all game so felt jj would play well aipf vs both thier ranges. rancid- it`s weird I always have a plan when i`m playing cash for example if I raise pre then get 3bet I know if i`m 4bettin/callin/folding and what flops I want and what flops i Think my opponent won`t like etc.(I love cash) But in this hand I never really knew what I was doing when came to me I knew if its folded round to me I was always raising, either shoving or like others have said min/fold( is it bad I never even considered folding lol) but felt the blinds would only really call with a monster hand and fold everything else. Am I wrong in thinking though I defo don`t want a call with my 44 just wanted to take it there and then? but yeah would defo say blinds had tight range and was not playin back at me without the goods.
Posted by liamboi11

Have not even looked at the hand, but this jumped out at me.

We bet to win what is in the middle, is what's in the middle worth it

just looked at 44 hand
if you have been raising worse than 44 from btn than why can't you raise with 44

probs min raise/fold
If they 3 bet, is it a steal or can you 4 bet jam with enough equity and given postions against callers range
Do you have enough fold equity to fold out oppo 3 bet range given effective stack


I don't have any answers, just questions that you can ask yourself

you do mention that you been raising btn lots and blinds been  3 betting you, so assign a range to a std 3 bet and a shove 3 bet and play accordingly.
u min raise, your then either foldin, calling the shove or 4 bets hoving.
Most of the time they should fold, unless they defend a lot - u still have position so if they call it's still good for you.

Also how did the 3 bet sze differ from when they 3 bet 99 to 3 betting bigger with supposed big hands - which you can say is either not big hand or big hand )

liamboi11

I defo think now I should have defo min/fold like you say I`ve been raising with a lot hands so me here shoving looks a bit odd from what I have been doing previously.

also the big blinds 3bet size was for example

I i raise 150 they go 750

I i raise 200 they go 950

I i raise 400 they go 1600

always roughly 4x my initial raise which imo was big.

but defo thanks for advice think may have plugged a leak don`t know how many mtts i`ve bust last 12months shoving with pairs 22-88 with a 15 to 20bb stack and been snapped off and crushed or lost a flip where there was no need really.