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D.Y.Ms (Do Your Maths)
I was watching the Sky Poker TV Channel the other day and our Sky Poker Sponsored Pro Julian "YoYo" Thew was asked if he used the maths as part of his decision making.
Julian has had some great successes and some very nice cashes recently and throughout his career, so I was a somewhat surprised to hear him admit that he wasn't too great with the poker maths and mainly relied on his instinct to make decisions.
I suppose his vast amount of experience playing live has taught him how to read the table & players (along with his "Run like Thewey" table image) but how important is the maths?
Do we get to a stage in our poker playing career where knowing the maths is less important than say our ability to play poker or our ablity to read a player or table?
Sometimes I see & hear players saying "How can you call there" and the likes.....and tbh I very rarely answer them because I usually play the hand using my own instinct (rightly or wrongly) and probably would'nt be able to explain my call using the maths in any case.
Is it worth while spending time learning the maths and how important is it to you in your game?
Julian has had some great successes and some very nice cashes recently and throughout his career, so I was a somewhat surprised to hear him admit that he wasn't too great with the poker maths and mainly relied on his instinct to make decisions.
I suppose his vast amount of experience playing live has taught him how to read the table & players (along with his "Run like Thewey" table image) but how important is the maths?
Do we get to a stage in our poker playing career where knowing the maths is less important than say our ability to play poker or our ablity to read a player or table?
Sometimes I see & hear players saying "How can you call there" and the likes.....and tbh I very rarely answer them because I usually play the hand using my own instinct (rightly or wrongly) and probably would'nt be able to explain my call using the maths in any case.
Is it worth while spending time learning the maths and how important is it to you in your game?
Comments
As a recreational player i don't have the time or inclination to get that deep into it.
I just enjoy it !
Your right, I suppose I am using some of the maths without really thinking about it too much.
I play darts on a Thursday night and although I always know exactly what to throw for when i'm looking for a 3 dart finish, its not because i've worked out the maths. For instance, if I need 137 with 3 darts, I automatically know I have to throw for treble 19 (57) treble 16 (48) and then finish on double 16 (32).
Under pressure I couldn't tell you what 3 x 17 was, but in a split second if you asked me what treble 17 was on a dartboard I would tell you it was 51.
"Under pressure I couldn't tell you what 3 x 17 was, but in a split second if you asked me what treble 17 was on a dartboard I would tell you it was 51".
I have often wondered whether this is similar to the guys that are very maths orientated, like they are able to do the calculations they write in the clinic almost at an instant without having to go through every step they explain when describing how they make there decisions. Would love to hear from some of the more math orientated players..
I realised that part of the problem was making my decisions too quickly and the reason I was doing this was because I constantly had my hand on my mouse.
I now take my hand off the mouse after every action (Unless i'm Multitabling) and find those extra couple of seconds actually make my decisions better. (I'm still losing, just losing less
Julian Thew knows that if he has A5 and his opponent has AK, he's a 30% chance pre-flop. He knows that his flush draw is 20% on the turn. He doesn't need to work out the maths of these things.
Playing on "instinct" with the knowledge of these things is different to some novice calling because he can "feel" a 7 is going to come, lol. Experienced players "instincts" are based on a knowledge of the game that is not instinctual, it is honed and practiced, as benc says.
With that said, a knowledge of how to quickly and roughly work out your pot odds is very important. It just doesn't need to be perfect to within ten decimal places or anywhere near it. Most of it can be done from memory.
I may occasionally be guilty of putting a bit too much maths in clinic posts. Apologies.
Its imo a good idea to get a basic grip on the maths early ie knowing flush draw and straight draw odds ie approx 40% on flop when you are 4 to a flush and 32% to hit str8 when open ended to a straight draw on flop as a general rule think of each out you have as 2% on each card to come for eg
qk spades on a 10 j 4 flop with 2 spades then you would work out your flush outs to the river
ie 9 times2 times 2 =38
straight draw outs 6 times 2 times 2 (spades dont count) =24
overcards to flop ie other 2 kings and queens 4 times 2 times 2 =16
and adding the 3 together that makes possibly 19 outs or 78% to win the hand if you are against top pair not counting your opponents outs.
Obviously thats an extreme example and most players would know that they would be willing to get em all in there but being able to quickly calculate your outs in a rough fashion helps your long term win rate particularly the more you play and if multitabling.
A lot of top grinders and really good mtt players play purely using maths thats why so many of the new young breed are dominating the live scene they know to the exact %age every hand they play and any slight mathematical edge they have they will commit all there chips which takes a lot of the old instinct and player reading out of the game which has totally changed the game over the last few years making it tougher for recreational players to win big events
Thanks for your post and a very well explained example of the maths.