MTT Mistake? 2 hands and my exit hand

LARSON7

First Hand dont think opponent is that strong, he's been shoving quite a lot, im happy with this call, exit hand i totally killed it! Should i have just folded 2nd hand pre flop?

cheekydeke	Small blind		600.00	600.00	7646.25
LARSON7	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	29524.74
	Your hole cards	3 3
nathAAn	Fold
FRANKEL123	Fold
Dustin1	Fold
wwfc	Fold
cheekydeke	All-in		7646.25	9446.25	0.00
LARSON7	Call		7046.25	16492.50	22478.49
cheekydeke	Show	10 7
LARSON7	Show	3 3
Flop
		10 10 2

cheekydeke	Small blind		800.00	800.00	15692.50
LARSON7	Big blind		1600.00	2400.00	19078.49
	Your hole cards	Q K
nathAAn	Fold
FRANKEL123	Raise		3200.00	5600.00	41507.50
Dustin1	Fold
wwfc	Fold
cheekydeke	Fold
LARSON7	Call		1600.00	7200.00	17478.49
Flop
		4 A 7
LARSON7	Check
FRANKEL123	Check
Turn
		2
LARSON7	Bet		3600.00	10800.00	13878.49
FRANKEL123	Call		3600.00	14400.00	37907.50
River
		Q
LARSON7	All-in		13878.49	28278.49	0.00
FRANKEL123	Call		13878.49	42156.98	24029.01
LARSON7	Show	Q K

10NGY

With 3s its always a flip at best, 10 7 is as good as AJ in this situation. It's unlucky and to go deep these things have to run our way i think.

LARSON7

lol Jam or fold pre, i guess

10NGY

I'd have played the 3s. But you know my thoughts on the exit hand. Continue the flop like you did if you want but on that dry board what is he calling with other than A x?

LARSON7

This is my thinking at the time, and looking back at it i understand why i did what i did,

It's been raised pre, his range is a x, lots of pocket pairs, flop comes down ace high, check check, on the turn i'm thinking take a stab at it, when i'm just called, it looks like hes sitting with a pocket pair, when i hit my queen on the river, i feel im beating his pocket pair so was actually quite confident shoving.

People hardly ever slow play an ace at this level.

I'm sitting with just over 10 bigs pre, every1 is sitting pretty shallow. Thats why i just call the reraise.

Prob is a fold or shove pre.

10NGY

we shouldn't be shoving with KQ off so you did right to call. Now if we consider his thought process he's asking himself what your calling range is. Most of that range includes an A. So he won't call with pockets at this stage in the competition. He is probably slow playing because a J kicker won't always be good?

LARSON7

In Response to Re: MTT Mistake? 2 hands and my exit hand:

we shouldn't be shoving with KQ off so you did right to call. Now if we consider his thought process he's asking himself what your calling range is. Most of that range includes an A. So he won't call with pockets at this stage in the competition. He is probably slow playing because a J kicker won't always be good?
Posted by 10NGY

Maybe, but anything better than A J is most likely getting shoved preflop (given the stack).

He could be callin with 10s Jacks

Lambert180

the 33 hand is fine as long as you know villian isn't a nit and hasn't just been sat there blinding down waiting for premiums. The thing is though, you KNOW when you call that the best case scenario is a flip, and that's what you got, so if you didn't want to flip, don't call.

KQ hand, it's shove or fold pre definitely, you only have about 11xBB, you should never be calling like 20% of your stack pre if you have any intentions of folding later in the hand. Some players I'll jam against, some I'll fold. Again don't think you should ever bet postflop with the intention of folding cos your stack is just too small to do it. I don't bluff the turn, as played you gotta get it in on the river because he should definitely be c-betting an Ax hand

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT Mistake? 2 hands and my exit hand:

we shouldn't be shoving with KQ off so you did right to call. Now if we consider his thought process he's asking himself what your calling range is. Most of that range includes an A. So he won't call with pockets at this stage in the competition. He is probably slow playing because a J kicker won't always be good?
Posted by 10NGY

Why not? Can you explain why you think we shouldn't be shoving with KQ in this situation?

BorinLoner

In the first hand with the 33, I favour a fold.

Our price is about 9.5:7 meaning we need to win about 42% of the time to break even. I don't use pokerstove so I can't give you exact equity against his range but we know it's very likely that we're going to see a flip or a 20:80 shot. Even if we give him a wide range for the shove (which we should against most players) this call is never going to be very +EV (if it's +Ev at all).

If we fold, we have a relatively large stack and we play in position to (presumably) the shortest stack at the table. All our future decisions will be fairly easy as a result. I'd much rather maintain my stack, put others in tough situations by bein the raiser and wait for clearer situations to get it all-in against the shorty.

LARSON7

Cause at this level £2.20 BH the standard is maybe not the same dynamic at a higher level.

My thinking is probably quite similiar 2 10ngy's. I called because KQ is a reasonable starting hand, but it's not the kind of hand i want to jam with, it's so easily dominated.

I call of a BB 2 see a flop which i'm hoping i connect with. If i dont, then i can get away from the hand with 19k, and can pick a better spot to potentially double up.

I know this didn't happen in the hand, i ended up bluffing (which i cant do with my stack)

But as played i have to ship the river (cant put oppo on slow playing an ace)

I know it's really a shove or fold at this stage, but that is the reasoning behind the call.

KQ in this spot, opponent is playing quite solid, I don't know if i can shove, probably just fold. If i shove lots of times im dominated, or at best it's perhaps a flip.

BorinLoner

On the KQ hand, there's no way we can flat the pre-flop raise. We'll be playing out of position with King-high and we'll have little option but to play fit or fold on the flop. We're paying more than 8% of our stack for this wonderful opportunity to check-fold on 2/3 flops.

It's definitely a spot to shove or fold and it depends on the range we give our opponent: The fact the raise has come from early position should strengthen our opponent's range and realistically a good player should never be raise-folding against a 12BB stack in the Big Blind (because he should know that a 3-bet shove is a likely outcome). We don't know that our opponent is a good player, though, so he might indeed fold. If we think our hand plays well against his range, then shove. If we think it doesn't play well against his range, then fold. If he can ever be holding a hand that might fold, then shove so fast that you "burn your fingers on the felt".

As played, there is no reason to bet the turn, in my opinion. I'm going to disagree with Lambert on this and say that actually I don't think there's any reason for our opponent to bet an Ace on this flop. If he has a small Ace, he can't be called by worse and if he has a big Ace he wants you to make a bluff or hit a smaller piece of the board. There's not a single draw for him to fear apart from 56. I definitely wouldn't bet the turn.

On the river there is nothing at all we can expect to be called by that we beat when we shove. We can check-call to give our opponent a chance to bluff but after being called on the turn, I think we can probably assume that we're actually beat by an Ace and just check-fold.

LARSON7

Was an interesting hand and is all a learning experience, thanks Lambert, 10ngy and Borin for the feedback

10NGY

I said its not a position to shove QK off because we're behind to any A and at this level you don't always get folds from ace rag. 11BB when you're in the cash doesn't have to be all or nothing. You're getting 4:1 to see a flop which you say we might hit 1 in 3 times... we hit we make a move, we miss we pick our next spot we've only thrown away and extra BB into a pot.

Lambert180

I really disagree with the KQ mentality. The hands that have us dominated are AA, KK, AK, AQ but that should be a very small part of his range, if his range isn't much bigger than this then it becomes a really easy fold.

If you fear him having a hand where you're crushed, then why call?

Here is an equity calc from pokerstove with a rough range of what he may call your shove with once he's already minraised

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
Hand 0:     41.168%      38.50%     02.67%         1526657796     105949452.00   { KQo }
Hand 1:     58.832%      56.16%     02.67%         2227139364     105949452.00   { 22+, A2s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+ }


So we have 41% equity V that range which I think is pretty fair. If you add to that some hands which he might open with but not want to call a shove with like QJ, QT, JT where we have fold equity then I think it's marginally +EV. It's not a fantastic spot but imo it's MILES better than calling.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT Mistake? 2 hands and my exit hand:

I said its not a position to shove QK off because we're behind to any A and at this level you don't always get folds from ace rag. 11BB when you're in the cash doesn't have to be all or nothing. You're getting 4:1 to see a flop which you say we might hit 1 in 3 times... we hit we make a move, we miss we pick our next spot we've only thrown away and extra BB into a pot.
Posted by 10NGY

pure backwards this. KQ with 11bbs is shove or fold, theres no case what so ever for calling

GELDY

In Response to Re: MTT Mistake? 2 hands and my exit hand:

I said its not a position to shove QK off because we're behind to any A and at this level you don't always get folds from ace rag. 11BB when you're in the cash doesn't have to be all or nothing. You're getting 4:1 to see a flop which you say we might hit 1 in 3 times... we hit we make a move, we miss we pick our next spot we've only thrown away and extra BB into a pot.
Posted by 10NGY

you cannot afford to waste chips when this shallow. In this position you are looking for one thing only - the hand to shove with - and you want as many chips as possible for when you do.

is this the time to shove - maybe - but would be read dependent/ based on table dynamic

GELDY

On the 33 hand he is short stacked, but still has enough to make you think twice about calling. as previously mentioned you are racing at best, and you don't want to be throwing away chips in a race unnecessarily (although if it was a BH then the call becomes +EV)