Feedback on nut flush on a paired board

LARSON7

In this hand here, the raise preflop should be a fold against oppo's range, but i went with it.

Flop comes down given me a flush draw, with 2 queens. Queens are well within oppos range, so i just call as opposed to raising, if i raise, and im beat i'm just getting reraised, decided to call.

On Turn when the King drops, again i'm happy to call to hit my flush.

On river when i hit flush and 3/4 pot bet goes in, what would you do here?

craigcu12	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.13
plater0516	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.82
	Your hole cards	A 7
LARSON7	Raise		£0.12	£0.18	£4.82
TOD19	Fold
snaptilt	Fold
oljamaica	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		£0.24	£0.42	£4.89
plater0516	Fold
LARSON7	Call		£0.14	£0.56	£4.68
Flop
		Q 4 Q
craigcu12	Bet		£0.24	£0.80	£4.65
LARSON7	Call		£0.24	£1.04	£4.44
Turn
		K
craigcu12	Bet		£0.52	£1.56	£4.13
LARSON7	Call		£0.52	£2.08	£3.92
River
		9

10NGY

I'd flat. You've hit the hand you were looking for and just cash in if you're good. But if you re-raise I think you're only getting called by better. 9s and Ks both in his range. Wouldn't put him on QK with a 3-bet pre but I think if you raise you scream flush draw hit, so he folds with a set or good 2 pair and only calls with house.

percival09

kinda loose open utg at 4nl, and we prob should fold to the small 3bet even though we're getting very good odds. Villain has 3bet us oop when we opened in the strongest position, his range is very narrow and has us crushed so we have quite big reverse implied odds

Call otr depending on bet size, we might be able to fold. This is the reason we should fold pre in this spot, we're not getting paid that much when we do hit the flush and we could still be behind even when we hit what we wanted to hit. 

The_Don90

i personally fold to the 3b pre. 

however i also fold flop. given we've called 2 streets to hit this i think we have to call at minimum.

percival09

We can't fold this flop once we've called pre lol

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

We can't fold this flop once we've called pre lol
Posted by percival09

Any arguement for getting it in on flop then? 

beaneh

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

i personally fold to the 3b pre.  however i also fold flop. given we've called 2 streets to hit this i think we have to call at minimum.
Posted by The_Don90

wait what, fold pre is bad, but once you call pre folding flop would be like voluntarily getting aids. WHY  WOULD YOU

Open pre, call pre, call flop call turn, jam river IF you think he can bet call AA or AK or Qx, flat river if you think he deffo folds 1 pairs and just bet calls better. If you dont know what he's like jam river make a note.

wp

beaneh

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

kinda loose open utg at 4nl, and we prob should fold to the small 3bet even though we're getting very good odds. Villain has 3bet us oop when we opened in the strongest position, his range is very narrow and has us crushed so we have quite big reverse implied odds Call otr depending on bet size, we might be able to fold. This is the reason we should fold pre in this spot, we're not getting paid that much when we do hit the flush and we could still be behind even when we hit what we wanted to hit. 
Posted by percival09

not quite, if he has a really strong range, then we do have 'reverse implied' however the nature of his really strong range means we can call pre and have more imlied odds when we hit something strong.

That said we then have to consider what he's 3betting once we see this flop, does he really have KQ or AQ in his sb vs utg 3bet range, if not then he cant have trips just quads, and so we can afford to play this flop texture more aggressively both when we do and don't hit.

To fold river we have to put him on either a wider than expected 3bet range to include KQ or just put him on purely KK/QQ. Think at nl4 river is closer to a jam than a call and much closer to a call than a fold. 

percival09

yeah I suppose cos it's 4nl he's more likely to stack off with AA even though he's never good vs call/call/shove. I have to assume his 3bet range oop readless at 4nl is QQ+ so I think it's closer to a call than a shove just because with that range we're only ahead of 1 hand so it wouldn't be profitable, but if you include AK/aQ etc then I guess it's ok cos he's likely not folding

Yeah your implied odds point is ok, if we hit our flush it's likely we'll get his stack on most boards, but we have to question hero's ability in being able to fold when it comes Axx or w/e. I think it's a profitable call pre flop but depending on hero's postflop play is could be v.v. unprofitable so it may be better to just fold. But then I guess the question is should we even be opening pre with A7hh at 4nl considering we don't have to develop a wider utg range than 22+ AQ+. lol 4nl sucks

LARSON7

Oppo is a regular and profitable player at 2p-4p. it could have been a fold pre, i was happy to see a flop.

When flop comes down QQ it just looks like a continuation bet and i have position I am happy to call.

When oppo leads out on turn, i was thinking hes definatly got a queen or king, again i was happy to call, if i reraise he is going right over the top.

When i hit my flush i was surprised he bet out so strong. I felt there was a good chance I was beat, I was just hoping he was sitting with Aces or A Q.  No point in rerasing he was only calling with a better hand.

Reluctant call, i was 3 bet with KQ!

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

Oppo is a regular and profitable player at 2p-4p. it could have been a fold pre, i was happy to see a flop. When flop comes down QQ it just looks like a continuation bet and i have position I am happy to call. When oppo leads out on turn, i was thinking hes definatly got a queen or king, again i was happy to call, if i reraise he is going right over the top. When i hit my flush i was surprised he bet out so strong. I felt there was a good chance I was beat, I was just hoping he was sitting with Aces or A Q.  No point in rerasing he was only calling with a better hand. Reluctant call, i was 3 bet with KQ!
Posted by LARSON7

The issue i have here is a good reg might know that you think more than the average NL4 player and therefore 3b you lighter. I don't know how often this is the case at NL4 anymore i tried it a few times but tintin always has it lol. Some regs do fold and as a result you can 3b them wider on occassions - table dependant and pos dependant. 

Im going to through so pans into the works here - can anyone 4bet pre v a reg here? 

percival09

4bet with A7? vs a sb 3bet when we've opened utg? At 4nl?? Never lol well we'd only 4bet for value vs a complete maniac. And without meaning to be rude, calling a 4nl player a good reg is a bit ridiculous

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

4bet with A7? vs a sb 3bet when we've opened utg? At 4nl?? Never lol well we'd only 4bet for value vs a complete maniac. And without meaning to be rude, calling a 4nl player a good reg is a bit ridiculous
Posted by percival09

lol say that to Tintin, Craigcu (the above player) as well as many others. Tintin does really well for himself grinding it out at these stakes.

Don; if i stick in a decent 4 bet here it gets through, i was thinking it could be a move to get me off the hand, but thought it most likely he had a decent hand (including most pocket pairs).

At 4nl when i see 4 or 5 bets its normally Aces over Kings.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board:

In Response to Re: Feedback on nut flush on a paired board : lol say that to Tintin, Craigcu (the above player) as well as many others. Tintin does really well for himself grinding it out at these stakes. Don; if i stick in a decent 4 bet here it gets through, i was thinking it could be a move to get me off the hand, but thought it most likely he had a decent hand (including most pocket pairs). At 4nl when i see 4 or 5 bets its normally Aces over Kings.
Posted by LARSON7

This is my point, i mean I dont know craig's game well, think ive played with him twice once at NL10 and once in the poster thingy. From what ive seen of him hes not braindead like most here. He also posts alot here and shows eagerness to learn that for my is the signs of a player who is capable of 3betting light. Expessially if the BB is folding alot no one else is in this hand bar a player who i imagine he also sees as a reg. 

Fwiw Percival i think calling a NL4 reg a maniac would be wrong, more the opposite. Complete nit. 

I don't think we're ever 4betting for value with A7, but 4betting as a bluff - sometimes we will have the best hand. But this also allows us to balance our range v a player who is capable of making a move. 

I'm not saying its right i suggested it. 

percival09

don, balancing our range vs a 4nl "reg" is utterly pointless I promise you

The_Don90

your probably right percy fwiw. meh cutting at straws at FPS ftl lol. 

beaneh

sigh typed a decent length post but obv the site wants to delete it instead of posting.

i'll paraphrase. 

YOU'RE PLAYING NL4. STOP SAYING GOOD/TOUGH/AWESOME REG. SAY NO LIMIT 4 REG. NOT EVEN NO LIMIT TEN NO LIMIT FOURRRRRRRRR

do not just look to fold every hand, do not assume it's galfond in disguise who never makes an incorrect play.

do not fold pre, do not fold to the 3bet pre, play pokaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa