MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot

LARSON7

Here's 2 hands from a MTT tournie tonight, it's really close to the bubble, im sittin with 10 BB it's folded round, i think it's a good spot to shove? Or should i wait fora better spot than this?

Also HAnd 2, i am in the small blind, its folded round, i min raise with AJ, opponent shoves, i folded was just wondering should i have ran with this? I was thinking opponents not shoving here with a 10 or worse.

cheren1984	Small blind		600.00	600.00	44325.00
wartic	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	32295.00
	Your hole cards	5 5
princey115	Fold
Tsaaaar	Fold
LARSON7	All-in		15555.00	17355.00	0.00
onelegleft	Call		15555.00	32910.00	11520.00
cheren1984	Fold
wartic	Fold
LARSON7	Show	5 5
onelegleft	Show	K K
Flop
		A 2 6
Turn
		7
River
		9
onelegleft	Win	Pair of Kings	32910.00

LARSON7	Small blind		600.00	600.00	20955.00
onelegleft	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	20475.00
	Your hole cards	A J
wartic	Fold
princey115	Fold
Tsaaaar	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		1800.00	3600.00	19155.00
onelegleft	All-in		20475.00	24075.00	0.00
LARSON7	Fold
onelegleft	Muck
onelegleft	Win		4800.00		4800.00
onelegleft	Return		19275.00

The_Don90

Both look standard to me. I probably raise call of with AJ  though bvb but will depend on reads and dynamic. 

THEROCK573

first one standard, i personally think the 2nd one is a good fold but others may think different.

bearlyther

yep both hands are well played

Lambert180

Hang on, am I going mad?

Why are we raise/folding 16xBB with AJ BvB. I agree there are some times we can do this against some opponents but I'd want reads to do it and OP hasn't mentioned any. Open ship is fine, and raise/call is fine imo.

Hand 1 - standard.

bearlyther

Wait i thought he called it off lol.  Yes you 100% have to call it off there with aj especially bvb.  Hand 1 well played hand 2 call it off.  prefer a raise call it off with aj rather than a shove as we can induce and get worse hands to shove on us.

LARSON7

The table wasn't going long, so I had no reads on oppo.

Just before in the same tournie i had raised 3 x out of small blind with AK, BB shoves i snap him off he is sitting with Aces! Was left with 5k and ground it back up 2 20k.

Second hand, i was thinking what was i beating?

I can't fold AJ out of the small blind, i need to raise here. Quite like the min raise, when i'm shoved on i was thinking what am i beating.

He could have been making a move, thinking i was trying to steal the bigblind.

But i thought he wasn't shoving light.

If it's a flip i'm happy with that at this stage, but i was scared i was crushed.

Maybe i should have just bit the bullet and called.

BorinLoner

Why do you think he can't be 3-bet shoving AT or worse, blind versus blind? He's shown you AA and KK in previous hands but are these the only two hands he's played?

In this situation with fewer than 20BBeff I'd be expecting the big blind to shove with any Ax, possibly any Kx, any decent Queen, possibly JT and any pocket pair. Our AJ is well ahead of that range. Unless we're facing an opponent that never 3-bets, we should be making this call with a smile on our face.

"...I was scared I was crushed."

Being scared shouldn't play any part in your decision making process. It's either the right play in the circumstances or it's not. If you make good decisions you'll win and if you make bad ones you'll lose. Forget this one situation and think long-term.

I wouldn't like open-shoving for so many big blinds. It's tough to balance a big shove to get paid with big hands and we won't be called by many worse hands than AJ. As bearlyther has said, we'll also lose the value we may gain by inducing the 3-bet from worse hands.

CraigSG1

Hand 1 - standard. First into the pot shove is perfect really. 

Hand 2 - Marginal but has to be a call unless you have a good read. Your beating so much and if your going to min raise/fold such a strong hand in a bvb situation then fold everytime with that stack. By min raising you induced the shove and should be snap calling with glee. If your going to fold then make your bet that much more stronger so you should narrow his shoving range away from hands you dominate to ones that are dominating you.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot:

Hand 1 - standard. First into the pot shove is perfect really.  Hand 2 - Marginal but has to be a call unless you have a good read. Your beating so much and if your going to min raise/fold such a strong hand in a bvb situation then fold everytime with that stack. By min raising you induced the shove and should be snap calling with glee. If your going to fold then make your bet that much more stronger so you should narrow his shoving range away from hands you dominate to ones that are dominating you.
Posted by CraigSG1

I don't agree with this. It seems to advocate raising bigger with hands which we intend to fold to a 3-bet and raising smaller with stronger hands.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot:

In Response to Re: MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot : I don't agree with this. It seems to advocate raising bigger with hands which we intend to fold to a 3-bet and raising smaller with stronger hands.
Posted by BorinLoner

Not quite what I meant. The point I was getting at is late on in B v B situation I am trying to view it from the BB aspect. You see SB min raise and think you have fold equity so your naturally shoving with a wider range. If you raise that bit more you dont think you have as much so I think you reshove with a more narrow range. 

Personally I min raise and call quickly. But as with everything its player and situation dependant.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot:

In Response to Re: MTT, late on, 10BB with pocket 5s easy shove? Or fold and find a better spot : Not quite what I meant. The point I was getting at is late on in B v B situation I am trying to view it from the BB aspect. You see SB min raise and think you have fold equity so your naturally shoving with a wider range. If you raise that bit more you dont think you have as much so I think you reshove with a more narrow range.  Personally I min raise and call quickly. But as with everything its player and situation dependant.
Posted by CraigSG1

I have written a response to this twice already and the forum has chosen to log me out rather than post it. Let's hope this is third time lucky.


We may narrow down our opponent's 3-beting range by raising bigger ourselves, however we need to make the same raise size with all the hands we're raising.

We also have to accept that when we're making this bigger raise, we're going to have better odds to call when the 3-bet comes back to us. Folding in those circumstances may be a mistake even though we've narrowed our opponent's range. We may price ourselves in even though we now know we're behind or we may make a poor fold, as dictated by the pot odds.

We have to ask if that's the best approach. If we think that our opponent is likely to 3-bet light if we make a min-raise, perhaps we should be happy to keep it that way. A good response would seem to be to narrow our stealing range to hands that play well against that wide range - hands we can call with. Players who will 3-bet us light are bad players to steal against, so we shouldn't be looking to do so light. If we can keep his range wide while narrowing our own range, that's a better way to exploit him.

Ironically this thread is all about making a fold after stealing with a strong hand. The justification for this must be that our opponent has a narrow re-stealing range. Although I agree with you CraigSG1 that the fold in the OP doesn't seem to be justified by any read along those lines.

CUFCrp90

Hand 1 Perfect

Hand 2 Open all in. AJ v any two cards with 10BB stacks. Minraising looks weak, and puts the pressure back on yourself if he resteals. Make him make the decision! In this instance you still have to call the bet though, because his range for restealing isn't much different.

If he calls and you're behind its just a cooler!