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30nl - AKs on the button
Just looking for some thoughts on what to do here vs an unkown with no reads.
What is your default vs an unknown 5bet jam with AKs on the B?
I haven't played much 30nl so i'm unsure if he's a reg or not but he is playing more than 1 table.
What is your default vs an unknown 5bet jam with AKs on the B?
I haven't played much 30nl so i'm unsure if he's a reg or not but he is playing more than 1 table.
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| villain | Small blind | £0.15 | £0.15 | £35.89 | |
| frankie700 | Big blind | £0.30 | £0.45 | £31.42 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| ricoramb03 | Fold | ||||
| Popeye747 | Fold | ||||
| foldUfairy | Raise | £0.90 | £1.35 | £29.10 | |
| villain | Raise | £2.70 | £4.05 | £33.19 | |
| frankie700 | Call | £2.55 | £6.60 | £28.87 | |
| foldUfairy | Raise | £8.10 | £14.70 | £21.00 | |
| villain | All-in | £33.19 | £47.89 | £0.00 | |
| frankie700 | Fold | ||||
| foldUfairy | All-in | £21.00 | £68.89 | £0.00 | |
| villain | Unmatched bet | £6.04 | £62.85 | £6.04 | |
| villain | Show |
| |||
| foldUfairy | Show |
| |||
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| £61.05 | |||||
Comments
4 bet smaller, and i think getting AK in pre, especially when you have no reads, is the most overrated move in poker, just my opinion. What do you honestly expect to be against when his getting it in pre. Nearly always he has a pocket pair and hardly ever does he ship pre with AQ, plus its not a tourney your in a cash game, cash games are about patience and i think theres no need to get AK in pre, i think this is overplaying the hand.
What did villian have out of curiousity?
But yeah as JJ said, 4bet smaller and wp
Thanks for the input, the general response seems to be to 4bet/call it off in this spot 100x deep.
The villain had KKs btw.
All that matters when deciding whether to 4-bet is whether you can get value from weaker hands by doing so or if you can get better to fold. Obviously nothing better than AK is going to fold, so ask yourself if your opponent(s) can call or raise your 4-bet with worse hands. If not, then don't 4-bet. If their 3-betting range is quite wide and contains hands you beat or are flipping against, call and play a flop. If their 3-betting range is so tight that it only contains AA, KK, QQ and AK, then fold.
It's a wholly player dependent decision...
Once you've made this 4-bet you shouldn't be folding. Your 4-bet size has left you with pot odds of 2:1 meaning you need equity of around 33% against his 5-betting range to make the call break-even. If his range is now even as tight as AA, KK, QQ and AK, you're getting the right price to call.
However, if you think he folds all of his weaker hands to your 4-bet and only calls or 5-bets with that narrow range, then you shouldn't be 4-betting. You shouldn't have to ask yourself "Should I call this 5-bet?" because you should have answered that question before 4-betting.
Imagine you have the opponent can only ever have AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK, we have a 42% chance of winning the hand from this point if we get it all in.
So we put in £21 to win £62.85
We are getting nearly 3to1 on something that's almost a flip. If someone said I'll flip a coin, if you guess wrong you lose £10, if you guess right you win £30, that's pretty good odds, right?
The only range where this isn't a profitable call is if the opponent can only ever have AA or KK 100% of the time, there are very few players who are this tight. If there is a single other hand in their range, it's profitable.
As you say borinloner "it's a wholly player dependent desicion" and having reads on a villain makes it much easier to come to a decision in this spot.
But what would you do with no reads on a villain in this situation with no way of using any info to come to a decision? this is what i would like to know as i have no way of assessing what the villains range is in this spot having only just moved up.
Your table image is also a vital consideration when deciding whether to 4-bet. I should mention that more often on threads like this (Reminder to myself as much as to you). If you're perceived to be very tight then you should be less inclined to 4-bet because it's tougher for opponents to get it in with weak hands. If you're perceived to be very loose, then you should be more inclined to 4-bet with your strong hands because you're more likely to be called or 5-bet by weaker hands.
If we say that this is a brand new player to us, who's just arrived at the table, I think we should assume that he has a tight 3-betting range until we see otherwise. I'd quite like flat-calling the 3-bet and playing the flop in position, in those circumstances. We definitely shouldn't be 4-bet-folding though, 100BB deep. If we 4-bet it has to be to get it in without reads that our opponent is tight. That's because we have to be making the assumption that he can be stacking off light to justify making the 4-bet.
In a vacuum, 4-bet to get it in or just flat the 3-bet. I'd assume he's tight so I'd just flat-call and see a flop in position. Out of position I'd be happier to get it in pre-flop, depending on which position the raise was coming from.
This hand made me curious so i done some calculations just to see where you stand. (all the ranges are fairly rough)
VS a Nit range (KK+, AK/AKS) - 40% underdog
VS a Tag range ( 1010+, AKo, AQS+) 46% underdog
VS a Fish range (22+, ajo+, kjs+, a9s+ ) 54% favourite
So even this suprised me as even against a fishy range your only slightly favourite
Now the maths.
ev vs nit = £9.6
ev vs TAG= £13.44
ev vs fish = £19.2
Although these calculations are all based upon the price when you 4bet and he shoves.
Hope this helped.
I really didn't mean to sound arrogant or ignorant. I'm definitely not the best player at my level or even close, especially as I've only been playing this level for a month or so.
It was only because you seemed more focussed on whether we were gonna always be up against worse hands rather than the EV of the situation. Sorry if I came across badly, I've said this a few times but when I was learning the people who helped me the most and got it to stick in my head were always the people who were VERY direct, straight to the point and at times sometimes harsh.
Everyone's different though, like on 861 when they are diplomatic and see someone do something bad and an analyst says 'mmm well you could have played it a bit better...', I personally respond much better if they said to me 'what are you doing! This is really bad, you should never be doing XYZ...' but yeah everyone's different, no hard feelings I hope.
And yeah, granted we only have to correct price to call once we 4bet, and sometimes we can get ourselves in spots where we've madea a mistake and ended up inadvertently giving ourselves the right price to call even though we shouldn't have got ourselves into the situation in the first place. Some would argue that we shouldn't 4bet in the first place
Yeah thats why i find this situation weird you arguably are making a mistake by 4 bet against a possiable NIT but that mistake then gives you the platform to make a correct call of the all in lol so hard to get your head around somtimes.
In all i think this move is fine oop because its horriable to flat miss the flop and c/f, but essentially there are 2 different options, flat against a NIT and some Tags and 4 bet all in against fish and some Tags based upon the reads you have.