20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?

DOHHHHHHH

Villain is a well known donk

This is a MC table, just about to go on TV. I know he's pretty risk averse and nitty post flop, doesn't like playing big pots w/out a v strong hand, so 175xbb deep I thought I'd rep huge pre and maybe get him off JJ/QQ.
As well as loads of other stuff obv.

He still opens pretty wide from the button too, he's not a pre flop nit.

What's the best line otf?

I think he can still fold 99/TT/JJ maybe QQ here.

Do I check/jam, hence pot committing him with these kinda hands and losing any fold equity I might have?

But then he might check back and I prob end up getting it in bad on a load of blank turns?

I doubt he will bet anything other than overpairs if I check. He'll c/back AK/AQs type hands for example.

Bet small?

Open jam myself and gii/tid when I have tonnes of equity?

Think it's yet another 1 I made a mess of.

Tyia!

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DOHHHHHHH	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£40.20
The_Don90	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£56.74
	Your hole cards	9 6
UP	Fold
bichasila	Fold
IDONKCALLU	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£33.02
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£2.00	£2.90	£38.20
The_Don90	Fold
IDONKCALLU	Raise		£4.60	£7.50	£28.42
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£8.20	£15.70	£30.00
IDONKCALLU	Call		£5.10	£20.80	£23.32
Flop
		6 3 2
DOHHHHHHH

Four2Flush

Shove then you can possibly take the pot down here or if he has overpair to the board then your off to the races with stack sizes any flop bet would mean your likely to be pot comitted on this kind of board with your holding so for me i just shove and would be happy to take it down here

GREGHOGG

I can't see what he would be folding to a shove having just flatted your 5 bet! obv happy to stack off now anyway... I would prob just bet small like 7 or 8 quid and happily call off a jam lol.

Obv I know what happened, but I was watching the hand live and the above were my thoughts. 

The_Don90

How can i not remmeber the hand and how didnt i re-make-a-move lol. 

Umm surley this is like a nut flop JJ, 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

How can i not remmeber the hand and how didnt i re-make-a-move lol.  Umm surley this is like a nut flop JJ, 
Posted by The_Don90

Do we always open jam when we flop the nuts?

The_Don90

do we always 5bet 69s leaving a pot size bet back ? 

IDONKCALLU

a lovely flop for ya dohhh  question is ya thought process im shoving on any flop here ?

IDONKCALLU

i feel pretty owned here cheeers lol   hindsight a wonderfull thing i thought u had the goods reason being i think u have me down as a nit

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

do we always 5bet 69s leaving a pot size bet back ? 
Posted by The_Don90

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat !!!!

Ur contribution to the thread so far has been...

"thats a good flop for our hand"

C'mon Donald. what now, and why?

IDONKCALLU

if i had any of the hands above i snap shove what u said

liamboi11

I bet say £7-9 and call it off don`t think he is ever folidin on this flop after the action pre-flop but we have loads of equity and the money already in middle its going in and you are not in bad shape vs 10s+ pretty much flippin.

only thing I would worry about is if donk had bigger fd wae 2 overs that be a sweat lol but still think that be unlikely but is possible.

and also you sure do get yourself in sticky spots it`s interesting though lol.

rancid

check or shove - never folding obviously

probs just shove

Lambert180

I just shove.

I cant see you taking it down on the flop that often tbh V donks range for flatting a 5bet but what ya gonna do now youve flopped the world with 96s

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

I just shove. I cant see you taking it down on the flop that often tbh V donks range for flatting a 5bet but what ya gonna do now youve flopped the world with 96s
Posted by Lambert180

Agree with this. It continues your story not to mention how exceptional the flop was for you and it should be a shove 100% of the time here. You have a slight chance of pushing him off the better hand and to add that to the equity you've picked up as well makes this the only play you have. 

jams88

Would a shove be better as if we are called we have tons of equity whereas if we bet the flop he calls and we brick the turn what do we do shove turn anyway with less pot equity and no fold equity?

What i am trying to ask is, If we are going to be getting all the money in anyway is it better otf? when we have the best chance of making our hand on later streets and a small chance of getting the villian to fold.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

Would a shove be better as if we are called we have tons of equity whereas if we bet the flop he calls and we brick the turn what do we do shove turn anyway with less pot equity and no fold equity? What i am trying to ask is, If we are going to be getting all the money in anyway is it better otf? when we have the best chance of making our hand on later streets and a small chance of getting the villian to fold.
Posted by jams88

Yeh ofc from my point of view if I'm going to get the rest in and get called it's better to do so on the flop....

But the problem is what he's gonna do with different types of hands...

If I open shove and get called I'm going to be behind & flipping. 

If I c/jam, I can maybe get some folds still depending on his sizing, and/or get it in v a wider range. If he wants to bet AK/AQ and then feels priced in etc. 

But then I run the risk of him checking back, seeing a blank T/J/Q/K/A ott and being in the same position but w/ less equity. 

I think he must think I have close to the nuts pre flop, and therefore he will check back so much on the flop, that anything other than a lead is gonna be bad here. 

He'll probably check back 100% of the hands he's peeled the 5b with, so this forces me to bet....

It's just deciding on like a £7 lead, or an open shove. 

If I bet small, I can't see him spazzing out w/AK/AQ, he wont peel either I don't think. He'll just fold. So I don't see any advantage to making it that size. He'll just flat TT and JJ etc.

If I jam I think there's a small chance he'll fold QQ/JJ and more likely he'll fold his 88/99/TT, and if he doesn't whatever he's never fading the way I run

So my conclusion is that a jam is probably best v this guy.

Are there any other considerations? Am I missing anything? Or does anyone disagree with any part of the above?

fwiw I did jam in game. 

I did a tommyd "I liked the jam at first, and then I didn't. Then I did, then I didn't."

Now I do again!

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

I bet say £7-9 and call it off don`t think he is ever folidin on this flop after the action pre-flop but we have loads of equity and the money already in middle its going in and you are not in bad shape vs 10s+ pretty much flippin. only thing I would worry about is if donk had bigger fd wae 2 overs that be a sweat lol but still think that be unlikely but is possible. and also you sure do get yourself in sticky spots it`s interesting though lol.
Posted by liamboi11

ty 4 the post liam. 

ughhhhhhh even having convinced myself the shove is good again in the above post, re-reading this has changed my mind again! oijcijeiqjceijcipjed

Think if we're gonna lead it has to be £7 at the most, maybe even £5.50/6

Spose it all depends how he plays AK/AQ.

idk

rancid

You 5 bet bluff now just shove and semi bluff - seriously the flop is about as good as it gets when you 5 bet bluff )

What other hands are in your range when 5 bet pre and oppo flats pre - what are going to do on flop with these other hands other than shove - what are you doing with AK on this flop

The only reason to check would be for oppo to bluff, does oppo flat 5 bets to float to post ip
Don't think so unless oppo holds AK lol

just find the whole hand pretty standard
You say you rep big pre and what if the flop misses you, you going check give up right

also wouldn't even think about betting, shove or nothing -
because oppo range is weighted and they have flat pre then oppo will probbaly flat post

put's u in a world of pain on the turn and you end up spewing FD + 9 or 6 gets you there - stove it sure your a slight fav anyway
if oppo turns over AKcc then just loling

edit: just to follow on do you think oppo ever folds better to a shove

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

You 5 bet bluff now just shove and semi bluff - seriously the flop is about as good as it gets when you 5 bet bluff ) What other hands are in your range when 5 bet pre and oppo flats pre - what are going to do on flop with these other hands other than shove - what are you doing with AK on this flop The only reason to check would be for oppo to bluff, does oppo flat 5 bets to float to post ip Don't think so unless oppo holds AK lol just find the whole hand pretty standard You say you rep big pre and what if the flop misses you, you going check give up right also wouldn't even think about betting, shove or nothing - because oppo range is weighted and they have flat pre then oppo will probbaly flat post put's u in a world of pain on the turn and you end up spewing FD + 9 or 6 gets you there - stove it sure your a slight fav anyway if oppo turns over AKcc then just loling edit: just to follow on do you think oppo ever folds better to a shove
Posted by rancid

I haven't actually played him that much, but everytime he wins a pot where he stacks sum1 I see it, as he posts brags all over the place. And he always seems to have a nut hand. 

I dnt think he's gonna consider 88/99/TT/JJ the nuts in a 5b pot 175xbb deep even against me. 

So I'm not sure but I think he might set mine 77-JJ here. 

People keep telling me it's standard, they're like "omg u 5b and got the perfect flop just shove"

But surely there's more to it than that. 

I wudn't open shove AA/KK here. who would? it's loltarded. 

But imo the way he plays stuff is way more important here than what I rep. 

If I bet £5 what does he do w/ AK? 

idk. and I guess that's why I posted it!

Balancing the likelihood he will contine w/ AK/AQ v a small lead against the likelihood he will fold overpairs to a jam. 

MAYBE BOTH OPTIONS ARE FINE!

rancid

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : I haven't actually played him that much, but everytime he wins a pot where he stacks sum1 I see it, as he posts brags all over the place. And he always seems to have a nut hand.  I dnt think he's gonna consider 88/99/TT/JJ the nuts in a 5b pot 175xbb deep even against me.  So I'm not sure but I think he might set mine 77-JJ here.  People keep telling me it's standard, they're like "omg u 5b and got the perfect flop just shove" But surely there's more to it than that.  I wudn't open shove AA/KK here. who would? it's loltarded.  But imo the way he plays stuff is way more important here than what I rep.  If I bet £5 what does he do w/ AK?  idk. and I guess that's why I posted it! Balancing the likelihood he will contine w/ AK/AQ v a small lead against the likelihood he will fold overpairs to a jam.  MAYBE BOTH OPTIONS ARE FINE!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Don't know why you disregard the shove with top of range, level them to death with the shove
oppo has PSB, why would you not bet pot
Thing is is oppo really flatting pre to fold flop, surely they continue with top of range
By flatting the n5 bet oppo want's you to spew pot size on flop surely with your bluffs so why not do this with top of range

You can't bet £5 when oppo flats top of range you hate life at turn, you are flipping with a 5 bet bluff - plus given the fact that you may have a little FE - pretty std )

But anyway, IDK either but it's very slim that oppo going to be bluffing flops in a 5 bet pot because IDCU likes money surely

All down to what you think they flat 5 bet with, which is pretty lol to be doing anyway

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : Don't know why you disregard the shove with top of range, level them to death with the shove oppo has PSB, why would you not bet pot Thing is is oppo really flatting pre to fold flop, surely they continue with top of range By flatting the n5 bet oppo want's you to spew pot size on flop surely with your bluffs so why not do this with top of range You can't bet £5 when oppo flats top of range you hate life at turn, you are flipping with a 5 bet bluff - plus given the fact that you may have a little FE - pretty std ) But anyway, IDK either but it's very slim that oppo going to be bluffing flops in a 5 bet pot because IDCU likes money surely All down to what you think they flat 5 bet with, which is pretty lol to be doing anyway
Posted by rancid

Cuz I have 3 streets to get a psb in! 

He might fold 77 to a shove, but if I bet £5 otf, hes not folding "omg Ive got sick odds I'll call and see if he slows down"

Same on turn

Then otr, "omg I've got 214/1 on a call he could have AK" 

etc.

v good/thinking regs I'll use the same sizing w/ a balanced range. ie. air. that rarely works out tho. 

guna request the hand 

642715531

rancid

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : Cuz I have 3 streets to get a psb in!  He might fold 77 to a shove, but if I bet £5 otf, hes not folding "omg Ive got sick odds I'll call and see if he slows down" Same on turn Then otr, "omg I've got 214/1 on a call he could have AK"  etc. v good/thinking regs I'll use the same sizing w/ a balanced range. ie. air. that rarely works out tho.  guna request the hand  642715531
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I hear ya but this ain't a 3 bet pot ) What good thinking regs flat 5 bet at this level and with what hands
Find it absurd that you would think oppo will flat a depolarised range anyway
Oppo should not be flatting anything but prems
Because oppo flats 5 bet pre, oppo will continue the same and flat you on the flop and put you in a horrible spot on the turn
Why is oppo flatting the 5 bet verus you, it can only be prem hand
To do it with anything else is just very bad
Is oppo very bad )

Oppo may flat a range that you either shove and fold better or oppo may fold worse AK/AQ that still holds equity on the flop

Really wouldnt' worry about folding out AK/AQ

really bugging me but you wouldn't flat pre and then shove over the top on the flop would you - that would be slightly icky
Let's face it, it's only a small part of range that oppo is going to bluff on flop
Also you want oppo to fold, so a shove is going to work as like you say a small bet is going to be called

fair to say when someone flats your 5 bet this deep, I wouldnt' worry so much about balance and optimum - but more what is correct given the silly spot you find yourself in

beaneh

[ ]  good 5bet.

[ x ] good flop.

[  ] good luck hitting your club or two pair+

sighcall

fold to 4 -bet/shove flop

IDONKCALLU

no 1 has said fold pre   its a fold pre u have 6 9 suited ffs   any 1 in there right mind would fold pre

beaneh

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

no 1 has said fold pre   its a fold pre u have 6 9 suited ffs   any 1 in there right mind would fold pre
Posted by IDONKCALLU

foldings no fun

IDONKCALLU

na its just dohhh trying to get 1 over me im sure if it was a average joe playing he would fold and he wanted to show of hes skills on the tv tables  

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

na its just dohhh trying to get 1 over me im sure if it was a average joe playing he would fold and he wanted to show of hes skills on the tv tables  
Posted by IDONKCALLU

You made this point the other day, but why would you expect Doh to play the same readless against a random than he would against you?

He obv thinks you're a nit and can get you off the hand unless you have a set preflop

Unknown

In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:

na its just dohhh trying to get 1 over me im sure if it was a average joe playing he would fold and he wanted to show of hes skills on the tv tables  
Posted by IDONKCALLU

'Getting one over' on people means exploiting them, which is part and parcel of poker.

Please shove flop, bet/calling is obviously acceptable but getting to a turn unimproved is a disaster