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30NL - TP + GS - What Line To Take On The Flop

Lambert180Lambert180
edited April 2013 in The Poker Clinic
For anyone who hasnt seen the hand somewhere else, villian is one of the best regs at the level imo. Very solid, tight/aggressive but capable of adjusting and being a loosey goosey when he wants to.

Pre I think is fine.

I just wanted to get some discussion going about the flop.

In your opinion...

1) What are the pros and cons of flatting the flop?

2) What are the pros and cons of raising the flop?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
BigHawk89 Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £75.08
X Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £32.01
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • K
     
StraightEd Fold        
Lambert180 Raise   £0.90 £1.35 £75.62
BigHawk89 Fold        
X Raise   £2.70 £4.05 £29.31
Lambert180 Call   £2.10 £6.15 £73.52
Flop
   
  • 9
  • J
  • 10
     
X Bet   £4.50 £10.65 £24.81
           
           
           
           
           
           

           

           
           
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Comments

  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited April 2013
    Hi.

    Very interesting situation. There are a few factors that need to be included. EG: What is your table image at that point? Have you been raising alot or have you been quiet? How often does he 3 bet you in pos or flat? If you been quiet and your 3 bet I think you should just fold for exactly this reason. You could be dominated already, drawing to a split or behind to sets and two pairs not mention over pairs. If you've been active then his range is definatley increased but he still has position so all in all I think you should just fold pre.

    Anyway, that said you didnt :) so personally on the flop I think you should just flat the flop bet. You need that little bit extra information (and the chance to hit your hand) to decide on the turn wether your going with the hand or not and if you can control the pot size too. This flop smacks both your ranges hard so he could be just as wary as you as to how hard you've hit it. You cant rely on the Q as AK is definatley a possibilty so you dont have any clean outs. If he doeas have AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ and even KJ then he definatly is going to be worried abot 2 pr hands, sets and the flopped straight as much as you are so a cheap showdown is possible. You may even still be ahead so calling and keeping him in is best as your only really going to get big action off a hand thats beating you.

    The only reason to raise the flop is if you intend to either fold to an allin/big reraise (which in itself could be a mistake as AK, AQ, KJ, 88 and the occasional bluff could shove) or you intend to call off and go with it. 

    I would be more inclined to go with the hand if I had been very active (or x had) but playing KJ out of position is very difficult and in big pots even more so.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    I'm on the button, I'm not OOP btw.

    I'm always very active, and the other reg is also very active. He's 3betting me very wide and knows I'm calling 3bets IP pretty wide too.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited April 2013
    what are the pros and cons of folding the flop?
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  • sighcallsighcall
    edited April 2013
    snap fold pre/snap call flop and re-evaluate turn.

    You say opponent is best reg at this level. So why put yourself in tricky spots against him? Also by raising flop you are effectivley bluffing 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    It's definitely not a snap fold pre. If I snap fold this pre I'm just gonna get completely owned and will have a pretty narrow/obvious range when i do decide to play a 3b pot with him.

    Yeah he's one of the best regs at the level but obviously that's only my opinion, doesn't mean it's impossible to win pots off him though. I'm IP with a hand that imo is easily ahead of his 3bet range.

    I posted a bit of thought process in my diary before posting it in the clinic but basically, he still has all sets, 2prs, made straights, draws, 1pr + draws and bluffs in his range after 3betting and c-betting this flop.

    I basically have the nut 1pr + draw hand. The drawback to raising the flop is folding out his bluffs but imo it lets me get value from all his draws and  pr + draw hands which I will lose value from imo if he misses the turn. Granted I'm not in great shape V his 2pr/set/made straight hands, but there are very few turn cards that are gonna allow me to get away if I'm up against these anyway so I might as well go for max value from his draws and pr + draw hands which I think outweigh the hands that beat me.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited April 2013
    think ya find bighawk is the best at that level imo :)  im playing for stacks here and deffo raising :) 
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  • sighcallsighcall
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - TP + GS - What Line To Take On The Flop:
    It's definitely not a snap fold pre. If I snap fold this pre I'm just gonna get completely owned and will have a pretty narrow/obvious range when i do decide to play a 3b pot with him. Yeah he's one of the best regs at the level but obviously that's only my opinion, doesn't mean it's impossible to win pots off him though. I'm IP with a hand that imo is easily ahead of his 3bet range. I posted a bit of thought process in my diary before posting it in the clinic but basically, he still has all sets, 2prs, made straights, draws, 1pr + draws and bluffs in his range after 3betting and c-betting this flop. I basically have the nut 1pr + draw hand. The drawback to raising the flop is folding out his bluffs but imo it lets me get value from all his draws and  pr + draw hands which I will lose value from imo if he misses the turn. Granted I'm not in great shape V his 2pr/set/made straight hands, but there are very few turn cards that are gonna allow me to get away if I'm up against these anyway so I might as well go for max value from his draws and pr + draw hands which I think outweigh the hands that beat me.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Im not saying never play against this guy. All Im saying is there is no paint going to war with good players where you are going to get yourself into tricky spots where he is competant post flop.

    Heard people say multiple times on the TV to find the value at the table. 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    That's why I said it was my opinion, and tbf I said in the OP and in my reply, that he is one of the best regs, not THE best which imo he is.

    And yeah that's what I did, obv never raise/folding.

    FWIW if you didn't see in my diary, I raised, he shipped and I called. AQhh
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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - TP + GS - What Line To Take On The Flop:
    I'm on the button, I'm not OOP btw. I'm always very active, and the other reg is also very active. He's 3betting me very wide and knows I'm calling 3bets IP pretty wide too.
    Posted by Lambert180
    If he knows you are calling wide IP he should 3bet you with a depolarised range.

    Let's give Villian an 8% depolarised range for example : 99+,ATs+,KJs+AJo+ and KQo, against this range you have 39% equity on the flop, IMO KJ is either a fold or 4bet pre as even when you get a good flop for your hand your still left in a tricky spot, once you raise on the flop he will probably fold most worst hands and get stacks in with a better hand or will at least have good equity against you.

    It's too late for me to work out the math lol but if they are only 5 betting QQ+ AKo+ (2.5%) then it is +EV to 4bet in this spot.
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  • liamboi11liamboi11
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - TP + GS - What Line To Take On The Flop:
    think ya find bighawk is the best at that level imo :)  im playing for stacks here and deffo raising :) 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
     
    I agree bighawk is prob best reg up to 50nl and shaun09 also gets a shout out 2 of the best imo ath these levels but yeah rancid is tough opponent and I agree with lambert rancid can be 3bettin wide a lot of time here and especially its one of those hands were both of you dont want 2 get outplayed and yous want to own each other lol.

    think I call or 4bet pre but as played call flop you position see what happens turn.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited April 2013
    im not saying rancid is not a good 30 nl player but when i play rancid i have alot more winning sessions then losing sessions i respect rancid hes a good player puts u in tricky spots but imo when i played the cash thing last year i played against bighawk everyday for a month and i thought hes the guy i do not want to get into pots with a very good player it turned out i was trying to avoid playing him i dnt normally avoid playing people but i did with him but he was on all the 20- 30 nl tables during that month 
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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013
    You guys :o

    Quite a few tough regs at nl30 .....I am dropping to nl20..NL30 TOO DIFFICULT



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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - TP + GS - What Line To Take On The Flop:
    You guys :o Quite a few tough regs at nl30 .....I am dropping to nl20..NL30 TOO DIFFICULT
    Posted by rancid

    like :)

    Take Lambo with u, he makes the nuts too often.

    Sooner or later it's gonna hold too ;)
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