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30NL - Line Check + River Decision?

Lambert180Lambert180
edited April 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Villian is very good, very laggy reg.

I'm checking the flop because he knows I can 4bet light and 4bet a relatively wide value range V him and think I'll get paid off more allowing him to bluff, obv never raising flop. Check turn, let him barrel off.

River decision.... I think he checks back loads of value hands, although he probably spazzs and ships river if he doesn't think he has any chance of winning @ showdown.

What do we do?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Lambert180 Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £36.65
X Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £68.82
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
guernsey29 Fold        
wolves88 Fold        
EvilPingu Fold        
Lambert180 Raise   £0.60 £1.05 £36.05
X Raise   £2.70 £3.75 £66.12
Lambert180 Raise   £6.30 £10.05 £29.75
X Call   £4.05 £14.10 £62.07
Flop
   
  • A
  • 8
  • A
     
Lambert180 Check        
X Bet   £5.00 £19.10 £57.07
Lambert180 Call   £5.00 £24.10 £24.75
Turn
   
  • 10
     
Lambert180 Check        
X Check        
River
   
  • J
     
           
           
           
           
           
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Comments

  • WilhelmWilhelm
    edited April 2013
    I think we can mix it up here.  If we bet, our line looks bluffy, we might hero us with 1 pair (probably not but we can hope).

    As you say, if he can't win, he has to bet. 

    However way you play it, I don't hate it that much.  :)

    Edit: What value hands is he checking back the turn with?  Probbaly not an A, right?

    Edit: Is there a chance we can bet small and he can jam as a bluff, or does this not happen?

    Edit: Did he have JJ?
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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013

    what do u beat that calls - not much )


    QxQh

    Saying that QQ probs not even in range


    bet £6
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    He probably will check back an A seen as it's a 4flush board but think he would C/C an Ax. He probably bets w/ QQ (with the heart).

    Against this oppo, yeh we probably can sometimes go small and induce a jam, but would have to go really small to let him think he had FE.

    I'll post result a bit later.
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  • WilhelmWilhelm
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    He probably will check back an A seen as it's a 4flush board but think he would C/C an Ax. He probably bets w/ QQ (with the heart). Against this oppo, yeh we probably can sometimes go small and induce a jam, but would have to go really small to let him think he had FE. I'll post result a bit later.
    Posted by Lambert180
    on the turn

    I think we have to go quite small either way, like a 1/3 or less, or do you mean smaller?
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    what do u beat that calls - not much ) QxQh bet £6
    Posted by rancid
    Yeh QhQx.

    I'm never bluffing small here, but I will be turning some hands into a bluff with a shove, so think if I ship I can get calls from Ax. He loves to hero call V me :p
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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    He probably will check back an A seen as it's a 4flush board but think he would C/C an Ax. He probably bets w/ QQ (with the heart). Against this oppo, yeh we probably can sometimes go small and induce a jam, but would have to go really small to let him think he had FE. I'll post result a bit later.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Are you betting small to induce or to extract

    What are you ranging pre to turn
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    Oh sorry Will, thought you asked what he'd check back on the river.

    Sorry, gotta go out right now, will reply later but he's checking back some value hands for deception, some hands that have equity where he wants a free card (basically QhQx) and maybe giving up on some junk.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision? : Yeh QhQx. I'm never bluffing small here, but I will be turning some hands into a bluff with a shove, so think if I ship I can get calls from Ax. He loves to hero call V me :p
    Posted by Lambert180

    Well depends on the meta between you when oppo flats your 4 bet bvb ip - )

    think oppo has polarised themselfs on turn here so easy b/f spot - IDK though u may even be best to shove :D
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited April 2013


    mbn to get there ;)

    fwiw now I've seen your hand I think u took the worst of 3/4 possible options. 

    Although I did consider it might be 1 final desperate attempt to win the hand. 

    River is normally the Qh :(

    Also in b4 beaneh calls u a moron for for saying a 30nl reg is v good. 

    And me a moron when he finds out I'm the bb :)
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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    mbn to get there ;) fwiw now I've seen your hand I think u took the worst of 3/4 possible options.  Although I did consider it might be 1 final desperate attempt to win the hand.  River is normally the Qh :( Also in b4 beaneh calls u a moron for for saying a 30nl reg is v good.  And me a moron when he finds out I'm the bb :)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Can't u be a fluffer and not a spolier )

    just fold pre imo :D
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited April 2013
    min raise pre u waattttttttttttttt
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    Lol it's not a min raise pre, I'm in the SB so it's a raise to 75p. Should probably go to the full 3x, but just got in the habit of clicking it once so 75p total @ 30NL when multi-tabling cos it's easier than typing in 0.75 everytime in the box when playing 6-7 tables. Laziness really.

    But this is the problem with Sky's betting system, it should be 'raise to X' not 'raise X' but meh, small detail.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    mbn to get there ;) fwiw now I've seen your hand I think u took the worst of 3/4 possible options.  Although I did consider it might be 1 final desperate attempt to win the hand.  River is normally the Qh :( Also in b4 beaneh calls u a moron for for saying a 30nl reg is v good.  And me a moron when he finds out I'm the bb :)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Was hoping you'd level yourself into a call

    Nah if we'd got it in on the turn, then river would have been Qh ;) Your equity doubles when we're all in :)
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision? : Was hoping you'd level yourself into a call Nah if we'd got it in on the turn, then river would have been Qh ;) Your equity doubles when we're all in :)
    Posted by Lambert180
    Wud make me a 156% favourite !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited April 2013
    If doh is the oppo I'd bet the flop, he'll call at least once with any pair and he'll prob do some badly timed bluff with the other random stuff he peels the 4bet with cause hes dohhh and he likes to try and win everypot.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    Cheers guys.

    I've since been told by the villian what he had, I'll let him post it if he wants to but I shipped and he folded.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited April 2013
    betting flop reps more bluffs than c/c, just sayin yo.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    betting flop reps more bluffs than c/c, just sayin yo.
    Posted by beaneh
    Definitely agree, but don't ya think C/C allows Doh to spak off more? :)
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited April 2013
    Hate the small raise pre from sb. I consider flatting the 3bet as well

    I prob bet flop.

    Don't like river shove


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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    Hate the small raise pre from sb. I consider flatting the 3bet as well I prob bet flop. Don't like river shove
    Posted by grantorino
    Do you hate it any less if you know I do it w/ 100% of my opening range? It's cos Sky's betting thing is 'Raise X amount' instead of 'Raise to X amount'. It's laziness really while multi-tabling to not manually type in 0.75 everytime I want to raise to 3x from the SB

    There's a pretty aggro dynamic between me and villian, although guess I can flat 3b sometimes because he'd never expect me to flat a 3b w/ KK.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited April 2013
    Why would you think raising small is a good idea deep oop? I know it's just cos your lazy, but it doesn't seem a great idea to m e ESP against an aggro villain
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    Why would you think raising small is a good idea deep oop? I know it's just cos your lazy, but it doesn't seem a great idea to m e ESP against an aggro villain
    Posted by grantorino
    Yeah, it's a fair point that I can't argue with, and when I see it written, laziness is a really bad excuse for not doing a proper raise. However, after this thread started, I've since been told how to quickly make it 3x total without typing it manually so won't be doing that anymore.

    RE: the hand, tbh when I got to the river I was just completely undecided about what to do, in the 10 seconds I was just no closer to deciding on the best route and as Doh said probably went with the worst option. I didn't think £6 would really be getting called any more than a ship because he knows it's ridic valuey and I'm never betting £6 as a bluff. Tempted to check and let him bluff off, but also worried that he checks behind hands I can get value from.

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  • rancidrancid
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision? : Yeah, it's a fair point that I can't argue with, and when I see it written, laziness is a really bad excuse for not doing a proper raise. However, after this thread started, I've since been told how to quickly make it 3x total without typing it manually so won't be doing that anymore. RE: the hand, tbh when I got to the river I was just completely undecided about what to do, in the 10 seconds I was just no closer to deciding on the best route and as Doh said probably went with the worst option. I didn't think £6 would really be getting called any more than a ship because he knows it's ridic valuey and I'm never betting £6 as a bluff. Tempted to check and let him bluff off, but also worried that he checks behind hands I can get value from.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Sounds like you have confused yourself, very clear v/b - greater chance £6 gets called than a shove gets called by a worse hand
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  • WilhelmWilhelm
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision?:
    In Response to Re: 30NL - Line Check + River Decision? : Yeah, it's a fair point that I can't argue with, and when I see it written, laziness is a really bad excuse for not doing a proper raise. However, after this thread started, I've since been told how to quickly make it 3x total without typing it manually so won't be doing that anymore. RE: the hand, tbh when I got to the river I was just completely undecided about what to do, in the 10 seconds I was just no closer to deciding on the best route and as Doh said probably went with the worst option. I didn't think £6 would really be getting called any more than a ship because he knows it's ridic valuey and I'm never betting £6 as a bluff. Tempted to check and let him bluff off, but also worried that he checks behind hands I can get value from.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Solution: start betting £6 as a bluff???
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner
    edited April 2013
    I may be wrong but I suspect there's a bit of a dynamic between you and DOHHHHHHH... call me crazy.

    Anyway, you can't expect DOHHHHHHH to call a shove on the river with many weaker hands than yours: As you've said, he likes to win every pot but he knows that the only way to win by calling is with the best hand. Can he really do that with just an Ace? Does he ever play an Ax hand like this? Does he spite-call you much?

    I might bet a bit more than £6 but the general idea of a smallish bet is fine, in my opinion.
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