your thoughts?

unknown_username · May 2013

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
	Small blind		100.00	100.00	7800.00
profman15	Big blind		200.00	300.00	7840.00
	Your hole cards	4 K
DTWBANDIT	Call		200.00	500.00	3560.00
jay1663	Fold
oscarpet	Fold
whipit	Fold
	Call		100.00	600.00	7700.00
profman15	Check
Flop
		8 K K
	Bet		200.00	800.00	7500.00
profman15	Call		200.00	1000.00	7640.00
DTWBANDIT	Fold
Turn
		7
	Bet		1000.00	2000.00	6500.00
profman15	Raise		2000.00	4000.00	5640.00
	All-in		6500.00	10500.00	0.00
profman15	Call		5500.00	16000.00	140.00

profman15		4 K
River
		9
	Win		16000.00		16000.00

Hi all,

Well i've taken a break for a couple of months(6week cruise plus a bit of poker apathy) and came back for a friendly DTD. Its funny but i couldn't get back into the betting rythm or hand assessment really. I'd been fairly involved and this is a hand that highlights my thoughts. Please put what you'd be thinking of doing and any criticisms(i can take it!).

With k4 0ffsuit i wouldn't normally involve myself. Folds around to sb who completes and i take the free card where the flop cheers me up! SB had not really had chance to complete or raise uncontested before as far as i can remember so no clues there. He bets out small. I decide to just call. Turn offers straight and flush draws. He bets bigger than i'd expect for value with nuts so test with rer. All in follows. Has he Kx ?(my 4 should be counterfeited by river though i expect to lose if he has case k).

So what would he take this line with?

Pair in his hand so does he think i've the king?

Two spades (9T s may/should tempt him down but the all-in?

Outright bluff(no previous evidence and both above average stacks). Nuts may look for value.

I decide to call? What do you think of this action? Appreciate your views....... No matter the outcome, i'm tempted to think that this was a poor call. I'll put what he had on later. Cheers...

Lambert180 · May 2013

Think the way you've played it makes it pretty obvious you have Kx minimum, so if opponent is competent and knows this, and still shoves, then I think you're beat. If he had any sort of draw (which I think is unlikely) I think he'd just flat the turn and try to bink a river.

Personally, I think you should just flat the turn. When you min raise what are you ecpecting him to call you with?

After all of the action, most likely holdings are 77, 88 and hands like KQ/KJ/KT imo.

LARSON7 · May 2013

It's a 1/3 pot size bet on the flop which looks really week, I would be re-raising here. 600 or so.

On the turn given our line on the flop, I would just be calling for pot control.

With the reraise on the turn, I would probably be folding there's not much we are beating here.

But would really depend if you had any reads on the opponent to suggest anything different.

Wonder if he has some w acky hand like 8 spades x spade lol

BorinLoner · May 2013

You can't fold the turn after raising. You have trips and when you raise with a hand like that it has to be because you think you'll get action from worse hands. If you don't think you can get action from worse hands, then why raise at all? Do we want to be bluffing with hands as strong as trip-Kings? We don't want to be doing anything with the idea of testing our opponent.

You shouldn't think of the turn call in isolation. You need to have your plan in mind before making the raise. Planning to raise-fold would be very bad, I think.

I think you should just call the turn bet. When we raise we should expect our opponent usually to fold most hands that our King beats and continue with hands that beat us. Obviously that's not a desirable outcome.

So just flat call the turn bet. Allow him to keep betting with his weaker hands or bluffs on the river rather than forcing him to fold. If we raise, we probably only get it in when we're beaten, against most opponents.

LARSON7 · May 2013

In Response to Re: your thoughts?:

You can't fold the turn after raising. You have trips and when you raise with a hand like that it has to be because you think you'll get action from worse hands. If you don't think you can get action from worse hands, then why raise at all? Do we want to be bluffing with hands as strong as trip-Kings? We don't want to be doing anything with the idea of testing our opponent. You shouldn't think of the turn call in isolation. You need to have your plan in mind before making the raise. Planning to raise-fold would be very bad, I think. I think you should just call the turn bet. When we raise we should expect our opponent usually to fold most hands that our King beats and continue with hands that beat us. Obviously that's not a desirable outcome. So just flat call the turn bet. Allow him to keep betting with his weaker hands or bluffs on the river rather than forcing him to fold. If we raise, we probably only get it in when we're beaten, against most opponents.
Posted by BorinLoner

Umm, if we raise, and face an all in, can our King 4 kicker ever be good enough of the time?

Inmo, I don't think we are, so I think it's a fold. One mistake is better than two lol

BorinLoner · May 2013

In Response to Re: your thoughts?:

In Response to Re: your thoughts? : Umm, if we raise, and face an all in, can our King 4 kicker ever be good enough of the time? Inmo, I don't think we are, so I think it's a fold. One mistake is better than two lol
Posted by LARSON7

That's missing the point though. You can't afford to allow yourself to make one action, see what happens and then decide what it all means. You need to think ahead.

Raise-folding is worse than raise-calling because raise-folding shows you're not thinking ahead. Raise-calling at least shows you're making plans, even if they're not very good ones at the moment.

Simply put; having a bad plan is better than having no plan at all because once you start thinking ahead you've put yourself on a path to make good plans in future. Otherwise you're just clicking buttons.

LARSON7 · May 2013

In Response to Re: your thoughts?:

In Response to Re: your thoughts? : That's missing the point though. You can't afford to allow yourself to make one action, see what happens and then decide what it all means. You need to think ahead. Raise-folding is worse than raise-calling because raise-folding shows you're not thinking ahead. Raise-calling at least shows you're making plans, even if they're not very good ones at the moment. Simply put; having a bad plan is better than having no plan at all because once you start thinking ahead you've put yourself on a path to make good plans in future. Otherwise you're just clicking buttons.
Posted by BorinLoner

We can a have a strategy going ahead.

In chess, you can think several moves ahead. There is pretty standard permetations as to what might be moved, and the follow up moves.

It's maybe a bit harder in poker. In this example, we re-raise the turn, opponent can fold ship or call. If he re-raises I understand your point this must have been what we wanted by re-raising.

It's not a game of 100% certainty. We have re-raised and got quite an absolute answer.

LARSON7 · May 2013

In Response to Re: your thoughts?:

In Response to Re: your thoughts? : That's missing the point though. You can't afford to allow yourself to make one action, see what happens and then decide what it all means. You need to think ahead. Raise-folding is worse than raise-calling because raise-folding shows you're not thinking ahead. Raise-calling at least shows you're making plans, even if they're not very good ones at the moment. Simply put; having a bad plan is better than having no plan at all because once you start thinking ahead you've put yourself on a path to make good plans in future. Otherwise you're just clicking buttons.
Posted by BorinLoner

We can a have a strategy going ahead.

In chess, you can think several moves ahead. There is pretty standard permetations as to what might be moved, and the follow up moves.

It's maybe a bit harder in poker. In this example, we re-raise the turn, opponent can fold ship or call. If he re-raises I understand your point this must have been what we wanted by re-raising.

It's not a game of 100% certainty. We have re-raised and got quite an absolute answer.