too reckless?!

jdsallstar

playing the mini last night and basically exited on the following hand and was looking to get some thoughts on it.

Villain 1 seemed to be little loose and I put him on a low pair or mid ace due to the limp then shove. He didn't appear to be completely reckless though from his previous play. I thought there was a small chance he was slow playing a monster but was willing to take the chance and that he was more likely just wanting to get heads up for a bounty.
Villain 2 I would have called regardless due to him being short stacked and probably racing him at worst. also he had shoved a pair of 5's early on after quite a bit of action so again a low pair was a possibility.

I felt the call gave me a good chance to more than double up and take two bountys at the same time.

Was the call too risky? was it worth the gamble? was it too early?

Donttelmum	Small blind		30.00	30.00	2997.50
JHEROCALLH	Big blind		60.00	90.00	3085.00
	Your hole cards	9 9
Villain 1	Call		60.00	150.00	1377.50
gazza127	Fold
jdsallstar	Raise		240.00	390.00	1560.00
Villain 2	All-in		500.00	890.00	0.00
Donttelmum	Fold
JHEROCALLH	Fold
Villain 1	All-in		1377.50	2267.50	0.00
jdsallstar	All-in		1560.00	3827.50	0.00
jdsallstar	Unmatched bet		362.50	3465.00	362.50
Villain 1	Show	Q 10
jdsallstar	Show	9 9
Villain 2	Show	J A
Flop
		J 4 K
Turn
		10
River
		3
Villain 2	Win	Pair of Jacks	1590.00		1590.00
Villain 1	Win	Pair of 10s	1875.00		1875.00

CraigSG1

Hi, 

Being a BH specialist, I absoloutley think this is the right call the way the hand has played. In fact, its probably the right call in a normal tourny. If villan1 had raised, you had flatted and then he reraised after the other allin then its a fold but by limp shoving this is almost 100% what it is - a marginal hand gambling for a bounty.

Villian2 shove is obviosly very, very wide being short stacked. 

Dont be results orientated as had you won you wouldnt be wondering if it was the right call or not.

percival09

I think it's fine in a micro bh

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: too reckless?!:

Hi,  Being a BH specialist, I absoloutley think this is the right call the way the hand has played. In fact, its probably the right call in a normal tourny. If villan1 had raised, you had flatted and then he reraised after the other allin then its a fold but by limp shoving this is almost 100% what it is - a marginal hand gambling for a bounty. Villian2 shove is obviosly very, very wide being short stacked.  Dont be results orientated as had you won you wouldnt be wondering if it was the right call or not.
Posted by CraigSG1

Thanks for the reply. My main concern was it too big a risk basically flipping against potentially 4 overcards. I put him (villain 1) on a low pair which made me sway to calling but say for example I was more convinced he had two over cards is it still a call?
(Villain 2 is a sky regular so was pretty sure he had at least a pocket pair or A10 - AK but he was always getting a call.)

Pocket pairs I think are the major leak in my game and I'm never really sure how to play them or if I played them correctly - glad I got this one right .

Basically I go with:

Pairs 5 or below: try to see cheap flop or fold to a lot of action. Later stages fold preflop if stack starting to get low (15 -25 bb's). Shove if stack really low (10bb's or less).
Pairs 6 -8's - raise but be prepared to lay them down to significant action. Later stages or reducing stack (less 10-20bb's be prepared to shove.
Pairs 9 - J's - Raise and getting ready to shove. Later stages happy to shove
Pairs Q's and above - Get all my chips as quick as possible (obviously cautious with overcards on flop etc).

One thing that gets me is I don't like limping into any pot, raise folding preflop looks weak (encourages others to shove my raises) and raising and then folding on the flop encourages people to call my raises/ c bets (which hurts my steal attempts). This is where I tend to get myself into trouble when down to around the 20bb level I think.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: too reckless?!:

In Response to Re: too reckless?! : Thanks for the reply. My main concern was it too big a risk basically flipping against potentially 4 overcards. I put him (villain 1) on a low pair which made me sway to calling but say for example I was more convinced he had two over cards is it still a call? (Villain 2 is a sky regular so was pretty sure he had at least a pocket pair or A10 - AK but he was always getting a call.) Pocket pairs I think are the major leak in my game and I'm never really sure how to play them or if I played them correctly - glad I got this one right . Basically I go with: Pairs 5 or below: try to see cheap flop or fold to a lot of action. Later stages fold preflop if stack starting to get low (15 -25 bb's). Shove if stack really low (10bb's or less). Pairs 6 -8's  - raise but be prepared to lay them down to significant action. Later stages or reducing stack (less 10-20bb's be prepared to shove. Pairs 9 - J's - Raise and getting ready to shove. Later stages happy to shove Pairs Q's and above - Get all my chips as quick as possible (obviously cautious with overcards on flop etc). One thing that gets me is I don't like limping into any pot, raise folding preflop looks weak (encourages others to shove my raises) and raising and then folding on the flop encourages people to call my raises/ c bets (which hurts my steal attempts). This is where I tend to get myself into trouble when down to around the 20bb level I think.
Posted by jdsallstar

Ok, firstly in BH tournaments you are getting extra equity when calling an allin as you get money. This is important in two aspects. 1/ It lowers your varience if you can gain money towards your buyin (and 3 heads mean your freerolling at least) and is a way of increasing your share of the prizepool 2/ It means people will call lighter and gamble more if it means the chance to collect a head. This hand is the perfect example of what can happen (and it does quite often) in these tournaments. It is very important to not just call an allin but isolate, so many times you get multiple callers and flop allins with nothing.

As for PP, its helpful to have notions of what you want to do with them but you have to be flexible. They are no certainties in poker. Keep an eye on stacks, how ppl are playing. With a hand like 99 and you have 20bb and the loose agg player raises, theres a call then this can be a great spot to shove with what is probably the best hand.

As for not liking raise folding, thats the nature of poker and you can easily use this to your advantage. It makes it more likely you can get paid by bluffs and weaker hands if someone thinks they can get you off hands. Just be very aware of your image.

BorinLoner

The idea of adding bounty equity to your pot odds when deciding to call is a debatable point.

Particularly in the early levels, you shouldn't be using the bounty as an excuse to make a play that is -EV. The reason for this is that your own head has greater value than the bounty. You've bought in for, say, £33 and the bounty is only worth £11 (or so) to you. You also forfeit the opportunity to win bounties further down the line as well as the opportunity to make the regular payout places.

Essentially I think that the added value of a bounty is negated by the potential loss of opportunity to progress in the tournament and win bigger bounties later. Obviously this may change later in the tournament when a bounty may be considerably greater than the price of the buy-in. A bounty may also prompt you to make a slightly -EV call if it's not a large proportion of your stack.

I must admit I've never given particularly great thought to this topic, so I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but this makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to call to win an £11 bounty if I've bought in for £33 and I'm not getting the right pot odds, etc. There will be better opportunities later.