did i ask for this???

waller02 · May 2013

Not sure I played this hand well at all.....

Oppo is one the best 4nl regs capable of making big folds.

Pre......I didn't 4 bet because I didn't really wanna get it in pre if I was shoved on. Just calling ok or bad???

Flop.....Loving life, just flatted because I don't want a fold.

Turn.....Should have shoved I feel??

Is not shoving the turn a big mistake, How should I have played this hand??

Flop
mordaw18	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.02
x	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£6.79
fluxline	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£3.96
	Your hole cards	J J
pontyace10	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£4.90
waller02	Raise		£0.20	£0.34	£6.08
fluxline	Fold
hansol	Fold
mordaw18	Fold
x	Raise		£0.80	£1.14	£5.99
pontyace10	Call		£0.80	£1.94	£4.10
waller02	Call		£0.64	£2.58	£5.44
		5 J 3
x	Bet		£1.36	£3.94	£4.63
pontyace10	Fold
waller02	Call		£1.36	£5.30	£4.08
Turn
		A
x	Check
waller02	Bet		£2.65	£7.95	£1.43
x	Call		£2.65	£10.60	£1.98
River
		K
x	All-in		£1.98	£12.58	£0.00
waller02	All-in		£1.43	£14.01	£0.00
x	Unmatched bet		£0.55	£13.46	£0.55
x	Show	K K
waller02	Show	J J
x	Win	Three Kings	£12.45		£13.00

Lambert180 · May 2013

If he is one of the best regs at 4NL, then you can raise/fold pre because his 3bet range (with that 3bet sizing) will have you completely destroyed. You'll either be flipping or against QQ+

After that, flat flop is fine, turn I get it in. Although I don't think you'd get him to fold for an extra £1.50 into a £10 pot AND we don't WANT him to fold anyway when he's drawing to 2 outs

waller02 · May 2013

I realise I'm effectively set mining, but with another caller in front is this not a case where I have the implied odds to do so??? Or am I way off!

Yeah turn was a mistake I thought too but I was desperate for a call.

Lambert180 · May 2013

Well we're only gonna hit a set about 1in8 times so 8 times you call 64p... 7 of them you miss and fold the flop and lose £4.48.

The 1 time you hit, you've called 64p and need to win about £5 just to make calling break even (obv we don't want to be break even, we want to win). So you need to be winning more £££ to make up for the times you make a set but they all fold, or you make a set, but so do they and you still lose.

People generally say to set-mine you need to be able to win 15-20 times what you had to call to set mine. So on the low side, calling here, you need to be able to win £9.60... on the high side £12.80. I doubt either is gonna happen.

waller02 · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

Well we're only gonna hit a set about 1in8 times so 8 times you call 64p... 7 of them you miss and fold the flop and lose £4.48. The 1 time you hit, you've called 64p and need to win about £5 just to make calling break even (obv we don't want to be break even, we want to win). So you need to be winning more £££ to make up for the times you make a set but they all fold, or you make a set, but so do they and you still lose. People generally say to set-mine you need to be able to win 15-20 times what you had to call to set mine. So on the low side, calling here, you need to be able to win £9.60... on the high side £12.80. I doubt either is gonna happen.
Posted by Lambert180

But I'm one of those people who hit a set around 1 in 4 you see.

Seriously though, cheers for explaining so clearly mate.

On another note, against a standard 4nl player would you be happy 4 betting with a view of getting it in with JJ?

BorinLoner · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

Well we're only gonna hit a set about 1in8 times so 8 times you call 64p... 7 of them you miss and fold the flop and lose £4.48. The 1 time you hit, you've called 64p and need to win about £5 just to make calling break even (obv we don't want to be break even, we want to win). So you need to be winning more £££ to make up for the times you make a set but they all fold, or you make a set, but so do they and you still lose. People generally say to set-mine you need to be able to win 15-20 times what you had to call to set mine. So on the low side, calling here, you need to be able to win £9.60... on the high side £12.80. I doubt either is gonna happen.
Posted by Lambert180

This is an arbitrary number. I don't like arbitrary numbers.

All you can really say is that you need to be able to win 7.5x the amount of the call to make a set-mine break-even. That means the closer you get to having only this amount back in effective stacks, the more certain you have to be that you will get the lot.

So against a super-tight player you know only 3-bets AA or KK, why not set-mine for 12x the amount to call? Obviously getting too close to that 7.5x amount leaves us with problems of i) When we hit a set but still don't win or ii) When we hit a set on an Ace-high board and they don't pay us with KK.

However I really don't agree with having an arbitrary figure of 15x-20x. Against some players in some circumstances we can go a fair bit lower. Against other players, set-mining with 20x isn't enough because their range is too wide.

In this hand, 7.5x the call is £4.80 and we can win a combined £7.93 from the 3-better including the money in the pot. That's about 12.4x the price of the call. You have to be very sure that this guy has only AA, KK or possibly QQ in his 3-bettin range to set-mine, but if he does, then you can set-mine here in my opinion. It won't be the most +EV situation you'll ever see, but it should still be +EV.

If that's the range you're giving him, though, why not just get it in on the flop? In my mind, it's either a mistake to set-mine pre-flop because you don't think his range is tight enough or it's a mistake to not get it in on the flop against that range.

waller02 · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

In Response to Re: did i ask for this??? : This is an arbitrary number. I don't like arbitrary numbers. All you can really say is that you need to be able to win 7.5x the amount of the call to make a set-mine break-even. That means the closer you get to having only this amount back in effective stacks, the more certain you have to be that you will get the lot. So against a super-tight player you know only 3-bets AA or KK, why not set -mine for 12x the amount to call? Obviously getting too close to that 7.5x amount leaves us with problems of i) When we hit a set but still don't win or ii) When we hit a set on an Ace-high board and they don't pay us with KK. However I really don't agree with having an arbitrary figure of 15x-20x. Against some players in some circumstances we can go a fair bit lower. Against other players, set-mining with 20x isn't enough because their range is too wide. In this hand, 7.5x the call is £4.80 and we can win a combined £7.93 from the 3-better including the money in the pot. That's about 12x the price of the call. You have to be very sure that this guy has only AA, KK or possibly QQ in his 3-bettin range to set-mine, but if he does, then you can set-mine here in my opinion. It won't be the most +EV situation you'll ever see, but it should still be +EV. If that's the range you're giving him, though, why not just get it in on the flop?
Posted by BorinLoner

I also had AK and poss AQ in his range.....(really unsure of how I would have proceeded on a low flop/board.....although against him I can prob fold to a 2nd barrel as sure he is rarely bluffing 2 streets) All the more reason to fold pre??? I think I also gave him too much credit/respect thinking he may fold the overpair there. I wanted the best chance of stacking him as possible.

waller02 · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

In Response to Re: did i ask for this??? : But I'm one of those people who hit a set around 1 in 4 you see. Seriously though, cheers for explaining so clearly mate. On another note, against a standard 4nl player would you be happy 4 betting with a view of getting it in with JJ?
Posted by waller02

Thoughts on this please.

I'm trying to get to grips with 4nl

BorinLoner · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

In Response to Re: did i ask for this??? : I also had AK and poss AQ in his range.....(really unsure of how I would have proceeded on a low flop/board) All the more reason to fold pre??? I think I also gave him too much credit/respect thinking he may fold the overpair there. I wanted the best chance of stacking him as possible.
Posted by waller02

If you think those hands are in his 3-bet range you can't set-mine pre-flop. It's especially a problem when you don't know what you're going to do post-flop when you miss your set. So yes, fold pre-flop in those circumstances.

I edited my post before your reply to say that either you were making a mistake by set-mining against too wide a range or you were making a mistake by not getting it in on the flop against the super-tight range. You replied too quickly for my edit, though.

offshoot · May 2013

Theres nothing wrong with the turn bet.

BorinLoner · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

In Response to Re: did i ask for this??? : Thoughts on this please. I'm trying to get to grips with 4nl
Posted by waller02

I don't know what you consider to be a "standard NL4 player". More to the point, I don't like thinking about individuals as "standard" players. They all have their different characteristics and history with you. Play against the individual.

Generally speaking I wouldn't expect players to want to call off 100BB with TT or worse but there are some players who will. Think about their opening ranges when deciding to 3-bet and think about their 3-betting range when deciding to call, fold or 4-bet.

Beginners all make a lot of the same mistakes but we still need to think of them as individuals. Readless, I wouldn't want to get 100BB in pre-flop against any player at any level. With reads on a particular individual, I would.

waller02 · May 2013

In Response to Re: did i ask for this???:

In Response to Re: did i ask for this??? : If you think those hands are in his 3-bet range you can't set-mine pre-flop. It's especially a problem when you don't know what you're going to do post-flop when you miss your set. So yes, fold pre-flop in those circumstances. I edited my post before your reply to say that either you were making a mistake by set-mining against too wide a range or you were making a mistake by not getting it in on the flop against the super-tight range. You replied too quickly for my edit, though.
Posted by BorinLoner

ha no worries I edited mine before you replied too.....I'm sure that post flop on a low board that I would be calling one street and prob folding if he fires again because I doubt he is bluffing then (could be wrong, but I don't think somebody who crushes 4nl does so by double barrel bluffing a great deal)

How about my second highlighted part?

EDIT: By standard I mean the types who struggle to fold any ace or suited picture card pre flop (or ANY suited cards) which I'm discovering is a good portion of players. But yeah, great reply as ever. I guess it's working out which ones they are and making notes.

Cheers Borin

Lambert180 · May 2013

I agree it's an arbitrary number and we can increase/decrease it depending on opponents but it's a good starting point and something to keep in mind that we need to be able to win more than the correct price to hit a set to allow for hitting one and not getting paid and hitting one but still losing.

I agree we should be opponent specific and we shouldn't get too lazy but I think I know what you mean, and against alot of the loose bad players, I would be happy getting in 100xBB with JJ. I'm happy getting in JJ pre at 30NL too against....

1) some really bad opponents
2) some good opponents who have wider 3/4bet ranges and are getting it in wider than just AA/KK.

It's the nits (which the winning players at 4NL will mostly be) that I'd really avoid doing it against, unless you have dynamics with that particular player, they've seen you get it in light, they'd got it in light before specifically against you in the past etc.

did i ask for this???

Comments