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Bubble boy again

edited June 2013 in The Poker Clinic
This hand led to effectively being bubble boy thoughts on the river here

Calling turn as i think he leads flop with a draw obviusly 1 just completed hso trying to pot control able to call pretty much anything on river then the shove should i be able to get away?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
snellie40 Small blind   400.00 400.00 6567.50
TripleG Big blind   800.00 1200.00 15955.00
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • K
     
rob2334 Fold        
snakebit Fold        
jams88 Raise   1600.00 2800.00 15737.50
snellie40 Fold        
TripleG Call   800.00 3600.00 15155.00
Flop
   
  • K
  • 5
  • J
     
TripleG Bet   800.00 4400.00 14355.00
jams88 Raise   2400.00 6800.00 13337.50
TripleG Call   1600.00 8400.00 12755.00
Turn
   
  • 10
     
TripleG Bet   1600.00 10000.00 11155.00
jams88 Call   1600.00 11600.00 11737.50
River
   
  • 3
     
TripleG All-in   11155.00 22755.00 0.00
jams88 Call   11155.00 33910.00 582.50
TripleG Show
  • Q
  • 9
     
jams88 Show
  • J
  • K
     
TripleG Win Straight to the King 33910.00   33910.00

Comments

  • edited June 2013
    Ok. if I was playing this blind (didn't already know oppo's cards) i'd be thinking this:

    1) I've raised pre and he's called (so he at least semi-likes his hand)
    2) He's donk lead into the flop min bet which means he's hit the flop in some manor
    3) He's called the raise and not shoved over so i'd expect you to be ahead.  Id have to put him on a weaker pair or draw.
    4) He then leads again the turn (not min bet).  To me he's made it clear hes not going to fold and i'd be wondering what he could possibly have.
    5) As played he shoves river.... he's seen you raise pre, reraise a flop and is still willing to stick the lot in.  IMO itd be a tough fold but look at the evidence and the only hands youre beating are probably K10 or possibly J10.

    But i'd probably be losing my stack on the turn as id raise flop a bit more to stack him on the turn so....
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again:
    Ok. if I was playing this blind (didn't already know oppo's cards) i'd be thinking this: 1) I've raised pre and he's called (so he at least semi-likes his hand) 2) He's donk lead into the flop min bet which means he's hit the flop in some manor 3) He's called the raise and not shoved over so i'd expect you to be ahead.  Id have to put him on a weaker pair or draw. 4) He then leads again the turn (not min bet).  To me he's made it clear hes not going to fold and i'd be wondering what he could possibly have. 5) As played he shoves river.... he's seen you raise pre, reraise a flop and is still willing to stick the lot in.  IMO itd be a tough fold but look at the evidence and the only hands youre beating are probably K10 or possibly J10. But i'd probably be losing my stack on the turn as id raise flop a bit more to stack him on the turn so....
    Posted by gazza127
    i was thinking i also beat a poorly played ak (its small stakes people do flat here with it) kq jq and aj to

    still trying to decide if i should be going broke here or we can consider folding
  • edited June 2013

    how to get away from it
    well if you reraised on the turn and he again calls and leads on the river, then you can fold
    but with only 10bigs this may be just too nitty by far, unless your goal is only to mincash
    if you are playing to win then raising more on the flop, as gazza suggests is probably the way to go

  • edited June 2013
    Hi J

    Yes i think you can get away as as you've bet and raised and he still sticks around. Personally i feel a much bigger raise on the flop is needed to stop a draw being chased. Even a shove will bring you a tidy pot when he folds for a no risk pot. He could even call if you've played LAG in recent periods. interesting one though.
    You probably wanted to call on the flop and were very unlucky that the T hit. If you fold then you have csi~10 which is certainly a heavy enough stack to shove and get folds with. Bit cruel though Jams ...ul m8
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again:
    Hi J Yes i think you can get away as as you've bet and raised and he still sticks around. Personally i feel a much bigger raise on the flop is needed to stop a draw being chased. Even a shove will bring you a tidy pot when he folds for a no risk pot. He could even call if you've played LAG in recent periods. interesting one though. You probably wanted to call on the flop and were very unlucky that the T hit. If you fold then you have csi~10 which is certainly a heavy enough stack to shove and get folds with. Bit cruel though Jams ...ul m8
    Posted by profman15
    We don't want to stop our opponents chasing draws when we have the best hand, we just want to charge them a price that means they're making a mistake by chasing that draw. Shoving the flop, if it would prevent our opponent calling with worse hands, would be bad.
  • edited June 2013
    I would say the raise on the flop is definitely too small unless you have good reason to think that this raise size will tempt your opponent to shove as a semi-bluff. If not, then you're just offering a really tempting price to any open-enders to call. You'd expect a pre-flop 3-bet from JJ or KK so KJ is the second nuts on this flop.

    As played on the flop, I'd be shoving the turn. This Ten only brings in gut-shot draws which can't be too likely given the pre-flop and flop action. AQ surely 3-bets pre-flop facing a button raise, so Q9 is the only hand that's likely with the pre-flop action. That's just one hand and even that would seem unlikely after the flop action. TT is also unlikely for the same reasons - no pre-flop 3-bet and the call on the flop.

    So I'd be thinking that if I was ahead on the flop, I'm very likely to still be ahead on this turn. The same is true on the river since the 3 changes nothing.

    When he shoves the river I think he can have weaker two-pairs, overvalued top-pairs, 55 or possibly even a random bluff since it's a pot-sized shove (dependent on reads on this opponent, of course). Those are all more likely than a straight, which you may consider but should weight less heavily in your thoughts. The river is a call against that range.

    Raise a touch bigger on the flop, to perhaps 3.6k, and get it in on the turn. If your opponent has 55 or has played Q9 this way you're just unlucky.


    Don't include results in future. I think some of the responses here are results oriented.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again:
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again : We don't want to stop our opponents chasing draws when we have the best hand, we just want to charge them a price that means they're making a mistake by chasing that draw. Shoving the flop, if it would prevent our opponent calling with worse hands, would be bad.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    This is what i was feeling although looking back in relation to the pot i have made the raise a tad on the small side . The 10 seemed like almost like a brick i was thinking to myself when he shoved that aq was the only feesable hand i am losing to and that shoulnt call a riase on the flop. I think the fact it was also a bounty hunter inclined me to a call but i don't know if thats great thinking hense why i posted.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again:
    In Response to Re: Bubble boy again : We don't want to stop our opponents chasing draws when we have the best hand, we just want to charge them a price that means they're making a mistake by chasing that draw. Shoving the flop, if it would prevent our opponent calling with worse hands, would be bad.
    Posted by BorinLoner

    Hi B

    Very true. I want them to chase but I hate it when they do and hit!! Silly isn't it! Haha
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