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Lose value on river by just calling?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| barx1210 | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £9.86 | |
| WILLI698 | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £11.41 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| devlin | Fold | ||||
| CUFCrp90 | Raise | £0.30 | £0.45 | £23.80 | |
| robbie1992 | Fold | ||||
| pepo | Call | £0.30 | £0.75 | £7.55 | |
| barx1210 | Fold | ||||
| WILLI698 | Call | £0.20 | £0.95 | £11.21 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| WILLI698 | Check | ||||
| CUFCrp90 | Check | ||||
| pepo | Check | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| WILLI698 | Check | ||||
| CUFCrp90 | Bet | £0.40 | £1.35 | £23.40 | |
| pepo | Call | £0.40 | £1.75 | £7.15 | |
| WILLI698 | Fold | ||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| CUFCrp90 | Bet | £1.10 | £2.85 | £22.30 | |
| pepo | Raise | £3.08 | £5.93 | £4.07 | |
| CUFCrp90 | Call | £1.98 | £7.91 | £20.32 | |
| pepo | Show |
| |||
| CUFCrp90 | Show |
| |||
| CUFCrp90 | Win | Flush to the King | £7.31 | £27.63 | |
Heres the story people, i'm bossing the table having just won some nice pots and calling a decent bluff on the river by the second best player there. So i decide to get creative with a nice suited semi connector.
I think if I bet the flop I either win the hand there or chase off all hands except big pairs and playable draws there. At the time I thought to myself as soon as I checked I should have bet!
Turn is a beautiful card to bluff on because it gives me the flush redraw, its an overpair so it goes with my percieved range so I fire just below half pot to keep it looking fresh.
River obviously gets me there so happy days. The opponent hasn't looked that strong all hand but when he reraises me all I can think is he's got TJ or KT? Unfortunately he has to bet massive to get me to fold there so I called anyway.
So my question is what do you think of my river play? Is the call there alright or should I have shoved on him?
I think if I bet the flop I either win the hand there or chase off all hands except big pairs and playable draws there. At the time I thought to myself as soon as I checked I should have bet!
Turn is a beautiful card to bluff on because it gives me the flush redraw, its an overpair so it goes with my percieved range so I fire just below half pot to keep it looking fresh.
River obviously gets me there so happy days. The opponent hasn't looked that strong all hand but when he reraises me all I can think is he's got TJ or KT? Unfortunately he has to bet massive to get me to fold there so I called anyway.
So my question is what do you think of my river play? Is the call there alright or should I have shoved on him?
Comments
"open pre is loose": Yes I know this that's a statement rather than a criticism though. I'm table captain I can dictate my range and playing loose occasionally balances my range in my opponents eyes.
I'm trying to play poker rather than grind out a profit so can you explain the thought behind "play well postflop to make it profitable". If you mean by that only play super tight I don't see that as valid commentary. If you mean bet bigger to take the pot down I get you, but I don't mind losing a small pot if it gives me the opportunity to win a huge one!
You would flat OTR. That answers my Q cheers!
raising with hands like 75s is loose in the sense that you are not very well positioned and if you happen to miss your flop which completely which you almost did and because the cards in your hand are both low and not paired all you can do then is take risks hoping the villians will fall for your tricks and fold.
another problem you will face is what if you did hit the flush because with you being OOP again it makes getting calls a lot more difficult too because to most villians would just think them selves that if you were just bluffing if he raised or jammed you would probably just fold so he is better of just calling with his pair and two pair or folding if the pot is too low, this hand he has is one of the few times you will get lucky and have decent hands.
if you just wanting to play poker for the fun why not save your money and go onto the free tables.
although micro stakes does have lots of beginners you do get some who are playing for the money and want to make profit and this villain above is one I know well myself
Just playing loose does not balance your range, taking same lines with a wide variety of hands balances your range.
More so to actually balance requires a very clear understanding of your perceived range.
How does checking the flop balance your range, what is you checking range on flop ?
To not bet flop unbalances your range. To not bet flop is kinda not bossing the table.
bet flop 100% of the time with your range boss.
What are the reasons to not bet the flop, do you think it makes your range look stronger ?
Would you bet flop with you stronger hands or just check with air, 2nd pr ?
just call on river
actually if that £4 left in villan stack then id go for rest - i initailly thought your was eff stack
He's never raise/folding leaving himself £4 behind, so if we think we're ahead of his range get the lot, if not we wouldn't call (obv we're not folding here).
Why not c bet flop, because it's not good for our range ?
Think raising 75s and checking flop is more of a leak than not c betting flop.
So we now raising a wide range ep and checking missed flops or non high card flops.
So our checking range consists of what !
Are we only betting on flops that hit our perceived range ?
if we are than ok, but how does that flop help oppo perceived range.
Just don't think it's the best EV play
Don't get me wrong I know that if I open 75 in this position all the time I am not going to make money! But I really don't see the problem with mixing it up now and again. If everyone plays the same in these games surely its a good idea to do the opposite: ie if everyone plays tight go loose and vice versa! Also I like to play the same hand differently sometimes, keeps it different.
Rancid: In a full ring game thats called the hijack seat, in 6 max its out of position, i'm learning the differences between the two! Also i'm wary of cbetting 100% of flops because i've done a bit of study recently into good textures to cbet and good ones to not cbet. Td8hTc treads the line between a good one to cbet and a bad one! Its medium/unsuited but semiconnected/paired.... I chose not to cbet because i'd only keep hands in that I couldn't make fold later on depending on what the turn/river. I probably wouldn't have cbet had I a Ten there either!
@CraigCU12: "if you just wanting to play poker for the fun why not save your money and go onto the free tables." What a rubdown! If i'm that bad and exploitable mate come and get my money, why would anybody not want weak players in their games!
Think we just looking at it from two view points.
You mention good flops to c bet and not good flops to c bet.
Who is this flop good for, why is it bad for you ?
I am looking at it from a range v range perspective.
If your checking flop, then what portion of your range goes into your checking range etc..
How do we know if checking or betting is better for our overall range as regards to EV.
If we care about oppo's range, then why is this flop so good for their range.
How do we make money at poker ?
when people fold
when we have the best hand at showdown
Larinoooooo said betting flop is spew, well is betting flop +EV or -EV for our range.
Does betting flop add EV to our range or does checking add EV to our range.
Al about range...
that is all
...
ok so in this hand, lets say pepo bets flop - do you fold ?
If you fold then how is raising pre and checking flop so good ?
Are you going to rep a very narrow range and c/r flop or float and take it away ?
Now we start getting into the area of spew/FPS and the like...imo
What if turn bricks, do you bet- if so - why not bet the flop ? Has the turn hit your range ?
What about oppo perceived range, maybe it hit theirs, is betting turn still good.
If we think our opponents are going to play their hands face-up on this flop, then we can c-bet. If we bet half-pot we need only get it through 1/3 times to break even.
If we think our opponents don't play face-up then we shouldn't c-bet this flop. If that's the case, raising 57 in this position pre-flop is likely to be unprofitable in the long-run because a) We're likely to play the flop OOP, and b) we're more likely to go multi-way to a flop.
This flop doesn't hit that much of our opponents ranges. The only real draws are 9J or 79. So this is not a bad flop to c-bet 3-way.
If we're opening 57s from EP pre-flop, we can't expect to only take down the pot when we flop some equity. We need to be able to win it without hitting a pair/draw on reasonably safe boards. We need to expect to go multi-way when raising from EP and to be playing OOP to at least one player.
If either of these players is going to float a c-bet with two overs or call with a gut-shot on this board, then raising pre-flop from this position is likely to be unprofitable in the long-run. If they're not going to do things like that - so they'll play face-up - then not c-betting this situation is the mistake.
Either way, I think there's a mistake in this hand.
To address the original question of calling or 3-betting the river:
It largely depends on what you think of your opponent: If he can think to himself that he can never be winning with just trips or a straight, facing a river 3-bet and he's disciplined enough to make the lay-down even with tempting pot odds, then you should just call.
A decent player probably doesn't call a river 3-bet with worse than the 7-high flush on a paired board, even with so much in the middle. £4 is 40BB after all, so why would he call that off if he can never be winning.
I'd just call unless I think my opponent is not very good.
stop puking )
What I am saying is actually not to bet 100% of your range, you should still have a checking range
but your checking and betting range should be still +ev
even if you checking range is -ev, it should not impact the ev of your whole range
you should bet with confidence that betting still makes your whole range +EV
You shouldn't have too many hands that detract from the EV of your range
add too many hands at the btm end and you reduce the ev of your top of range hands
think the main discusion should be why is oppo openiing this and how does it sit within their range
overall picture is more than just a hand
or do we just randomly open hands just because of some notion we have that it's going to be ok because we are the boss lol
would just love to know how you can make this +EV by checking flop - no one has really answered this
if we not making ev based plays then what are we doing
check give up doesn't seem like it's going to be +EV and I accept that but what is our checking range - is it pure -EV.
just all roundabout speculation )
This is the question what will show a profit with our range if we check or bet.
So our betting range will show xEV
our checking range will show xEV
Both lines should yield a +EV overall with our optimal range
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If we talk about exploiting oppo's in spots like this then in all honestly good luck because as you mention oppo should c/f flop because how is oppo going to boss/exploit opening 75s and c/f flops.
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so if oppo is playing optimal or exploitative I really don't see how opening 75s and checking flop is going to be +EV - unless hero is looking to exploit oppo tendacies to fold on these kind of flops
If hero is looking to exploit oppo tendacies then what range do they expect oppo to fold on turn that they can't fold out on flop then barreling -
We are making assumptions that we shouldn't c bet flop because oppo have a better range and they more likely to call.
How are we exploiting oppo tendacies if they calling with a better range pre and also not folding better range post.
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I find this discussion intresting and feel all points made are valid
Think it's more beneficial to discuss hero's startegy and how this hand sits within that strategy.
But I guess it's just a random open with 75s )
and yes poker is a very complicated game )
game theory optimal verus exploitable poker is always a good debate
espeically on prd flops as pfr which is more profitbale
funny thing is by playing exploitable poker your just going to either be exploited or exploit yourself )