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Horrible play by myself but how do you play 'em

unknown_usernameunknown_username
edited July 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Why not bet the turn and consider folding when op inevitably min raises you or shoves?
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2013
    Hi guys
    I felt so annoyed with myself here. Not long before another player had made a really poor ai bluff bet which i called to double up. I think i was geared up to look for someone bluffing/bullying and got it badly wrong. This player had been involving himself a lot and playing a wide range of hands. We are the two biggest stacks at the table. He seemed to be chipping up by making big turn bets and getting folds. A couple of hands earlier he'd called a pot size bet then raised when hitting second pair on the turn with A on flop and good texture so wasn't afraid to take a chance it seemed to me due to his stack size. Tbh i didnt really want to get in a pot with him as he was very aggro and his call of my 3 bet suggested a pocket pr/ AK.I got drawn into it but initially  wanted him to see my 3 bet as strong. 
    The half pot bet by me  on flop is called which doesn't seem to be his way so he may be drawing with a pair too. 
    So his bet on turn is the way he's been bullying but my raise pre shows i've a premium yes?
    We are making a big pot now and i'm there with one pair. I'm feeling sick now as i'm seeing a set as being more likely. With a horrible sick feeling i try to take him off the hand by ai. 

    Yes its horrible but please give me some advice on how i could have played this hand and where i should stop and give up. I stopped playing immediately as i knew i'd be tilted after playing such a hand badly. Any thoughts would be appreciated. 
    I think i talked myself into any scenario here which was my downfall. I wanted to believe he was bullying me with a single pair maybe overpair.

    Like they say AA tends to win you a small pot but lose you a big one!So how do you play 'em?


     Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
    profman15 Small blind 50.00 50.00 8595.00
    anubis6607 Big blind 100.00 150.00 6030.00
      Your hole cards
    As
    Ac
         
    mooby Fold
    freakin Fold
    Raise 300.00 450.00 15330.00
    profman15 Raise 1100.00 1550.00 7495.00
    anubis6607 Fold
    Call 850.00 2400.00 14480.00
    Flop
       
    7h
    6s
    Js
         
    profman15 Bet 1200.00 3600.00 6295.00
    Call 1200.00 4800.00 13280.00
    Turn
       
    9c
         
    profman15 Check
    Bet 2400.00 7200.00 10880.00
    profman15 All-in 6295.00 13495.00 0.00
    Call 3895.00 17390.00 6985.00
    profman15 Show
    A
    A
    Show
    9s
    9h
    River
       
    9d
         
    Win Four 9s 17390.00 24375.00

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  • est1967est1967
    edited July 2013
    Its the old added scenario with AA..When he mins imo he has better than your 1 pair and although aces pre are the BEST ITS easy for oppos to have better after streets..Lay them down they are only 1 pair on that scary board.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2013
    If there's one phrase I hate it's that one about AA winning a small pot or losing a big one... it's just SO untrue. Yes you can lose a big one if you get overly attached to a 1pr hand in the wrong circumstances, but that can happen with AK too or whatever. You can also win big pots. Deal me AA everyhand from now until the end of time and I'll be happy.

    Now... to the hand lol.

    Pre good, flop I go a bit bigger but no big deal. I bet the turn myself, and call off a shove. You just got unlucky, it's not your fault, AA's fault, your opponents fault, it's just the way it's ran out.

    Est - What do you mean 'when he mins'? The villian has bet half pot and OP has shoved
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2013
    Hi L

    I'm surprised you go along with the shoving and say it was unlucky. I was thinkinging that most would say fold the turn. I thought this was a bit poor by me hoping to win rather than feeling i was ahead. I think i didn't bet the turn as i had a bad feeling but after his bet wanted too much to believe his previous pattern of play in earlier hands was being used now. If you would've shoved then it doesn't make me feel too bad now.....
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2013
    Well I wouldn't check/raise, it looks like you're either bluffing (badly, cos he can't fold for that price) or your hand is alot stronger than it is, but I don't mind getting it in on the turn.

    You've 3bet quite big so I wouldn't expect him to call with 66, 77, 67, J6, J7, J9, 8T, 58 or 99, sometimes he will obviously, but I'd lean towards him not having these hands.

    So feasibly he should never have 2pr, never have a straight and JJ should really be his only set making hand. So he can have QQ/KK (some people do flat with these both for deception and out of fear so they can see if an Ace flops then fold... silly I know lol)... so yeah QQ/KK, AJ, maybe even JT, QJ, KJ, TT and FDs (although granted he can't have the NFD because we have As).

    I just can't see how we can possibly assume he has one of the very few hands that beat us when most of the hands that beat us would snap fold pre.
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited July 2013
    Yes Lambert but you cant assume everyone plays the same as you. He could have any two cards. What we can do on the turn is bet for value but also for info.  A raise after this turn turn bet and maybe you can get away from it... otherwise its not hard to see how you can go broke here.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2013
    I know what ya mean, and people will call with all sorts sometimes, but we have to attempt to put them on some sort of range and people don't tend to call massive 3bets with virtually every hand that beats us. There are a few hands that are more reasonable (namely 66, 77, 99, JJ), but there are loads more combos of stuff we beat.

    If we're gonna fold, imo it has to be that we just check/fold on the turn. Betting for information is really bad, we either bet as a bluff because we can make better hands fold (we don't wanna bluff here) or for value because worse hands can call.

    I don't think we can bet the turn and fold. We shuoldn't ever be betting smaller than 1/2 pot because it looks like exactly what it is (we're scared) so people could exploit this. So assuming we bet 2400 (half pot) if he shoves, we only have 3895 left and the pot is 13,495 and I don't think we can ever fold given the price we're getting because he will be shoving worse some of the time.
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited July 2013
    I see it differently. You bet turn... then get raised. You know you are  absolutely crushed and can fold. I dont care if im getting OK odds or whatever.  Unless I actually think my hand is the best after the raise I will call. But oppo is never going to raise bluff to a guy who has 3 bet pre and has showed strength on flop and turn. We know his strength if we bet turn. Otherwise if we check we can convince ourselves hes stealing the pot and probably find a call. I have no issue bet folding if I know im crushed. I still have 30bb left which is more than enough to continue.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2013
    What I mean is if he shoves over our bet, we only have to be right about 20% of the time. So we're correct to make the call if we're winning just 1in5 times. I think that 1in5 times he can have AJ (he'd play it exactly as he has done here), KK, QQ, KJ, 9Tss, JT, J8
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited July 2013
    I get that and im not saying that i wouldnt call some of the tme... but it is villain dependent.  IMO you are very rarely going to see hands you crush raise on the turn if you bet.  I think many people are calling down with the hands youve put.  If you bet and get raised IMO you are beaten or are against a hand with enourmous equity against our aces like a straight + flush draw....
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2013
    Cheers guys

    You've both put things i can learn from i feel. I must admit i tend to side along the lines that L travelled. I must admit my deliberate larger 3 bet on pre was to try to only bring pocket pairs and AK along. The flop half pot bet when called had me worried but my opponent had been bullying before. So i was worried about him having JJ or possibly flush draw. 9 on the turn again had me worried as i felt he'd call pre with 99. I was hoping he'd check down if he was drawing but this wasn't to be. When he bet out, i allowed myself to believe that he may be trying to bully and hence the rer ai though it wasn't large enough probably but if he was bluffing would be. 
    Overall i just had a horrible feeling as i hate shoving with just an overpair. C'est la vie. I'm not sure how to, or if i even want to, get away from the ai shove though? Do you feel he'd cal prel with AJ? I doubt it myself.
    AI shove pre is a bit silly isn't it?
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited July 2013
    At least we can agree that betting the turn is important. Villain dependent on whether you call the inevitable shove... but as I say hands you are crushing are almost never going to raise turn. You only have one pair.

    And yes aip is silly. You get no value at all.


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