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Complex hand requires complex thinkers

Played about 60 hand with villain and so far the match had played pretty nitty. Theres some semi relevant history in very small pots of me c/c'ing flops with like K hi + gutshot & BDFD, so he knows i'm not a folding station. He also thinks my 3b % is very low because he's seen me recently not 3b KJo when he's opening 85%+ of buttons. Tbh, I have been 3b'ing him light in some spots, but he probably percieves me as nitty OOP preflop at least.

His perception of how I see him: He probably thinks I think he's a little bluffy because he 3bshove/folded on a 653r board after getting c/r'ed. Apart from this, probably standard, if a little nitty OOP pre.
RivalOnlineSite Game #36450376059:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2009/12/09 11:50:15 WET [2009/12/09 6:50:15 ET]
Table 'Rhea V' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: 2Wisdomy ($189.90 in chips)
Seat 2: verve.oasis ($109 in chips)
verve.oasis: posts small blind $0.50
2Wisdomy: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 2Wisdomy [Qc 7c]
verve.oasis: raises $2 to $3
2Wisdomy: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [9d Qs 9s]
2Wisdomy: checks
verve.oasis: bets $4
2Wisdomy: calls $4
*** TURN *** [9d Qs 9s] [Kd]
2Wisdomy: checks
verve.oasis: bets $11
2Wisdomy: calls $11
*** RIVER *** [9d Qs 9s Kd] [Jh]
2Wisdomy: checks
verve.oasis: bets $32
2Wisdomy: calls $32

Comments

  • edited December 2009
    u check calling him with 88-55??

    couple of good barrell cards to keep him leading the pot, he could hav As 2s, or a small pair??

    only say this because i would probably be putting you on a Queen by the river, he would expect you to pass this here and would probably slow down with a Q or K. I just feel villain is bluffing this river with ace rag of spades or turned a small pair into a bluff.
  • edited December 2009
    LF I think you generally tend to overanalyse pots, plays and players. You don't know for certain what he thinks of you, or what he thinks you think of him, or countless other variables. And even if you did, there is no way of ascertaining that he is thinking all this on this particular hand at this particular time. Heck, if he's like the rest of us he could be grabbing a beer or putting the kids to bed as he plays the hand.

    OK, in the example above (assuming you are 2wisdomy, you don't say). A small battle turns into a healthy pot. Happens all the time. So what's he got?

    His PF raise is almost meaningless - he would do this with a lot less than Q7. You know this so see a flop.
    Your check on the flop is also meaningless - you would check 99 in this situation - so he attempts a steal. You call him but don't raise. Significant.
    The fact you don't raise would rule out TJ, K9 hands or Axs hands (from the way you like to play, garnered from previous posts), so that would set alarm bells ringing for me.
    On the turn, the villain bets out again. Your call indicates a slow play, but also indicates that you're in here for the duration.
    His river bet is the interesting thing. He knows you're going to call (only maybe an A falling would prevent that) yet he still bets out. Why? Either because he is stubbornly firing that 3rd barrel or he is value betting.

    I think you just have too many losers at the end to call. But I'm sure he will turn over a funky 5 high.

  • edited December 2009
    i dont like the river call...i assume you have posted this hand to show off a good call and like the above says he turns up with air but this is definitely a -ev call.  you only beat air and imo that doesnt make up a large enough % of your opponent's range to justify the call.  i would expect a large % of the time your opponent is just milking the 3 streets of value from you (even some of the hands he turns into a bluff on the river are ahead of you)

    how is this a complex hand?
  • edited December 2009
    lol, he had J9.

    Not that thats relevant, because thats obv in his range.

    But theres so few hand combo's that can go for 3 streets of value.

    Like, I guess QT, KT and houses, where as theres alot of A high, smallish pairs turned to bluffs.

    I think it's probably pretty close.
  • edited December 2009
    No where near close this is a fold 100% of the time. Your play on all streets is bad. Why are you playing Q7s vs a LAG? Fold or 3bet PF to define his hand better if you really wana play that rag, calling is terrible and you're just becoming a station on all streets in this hand. I'd expect to see a bluff only about 10% of the time on this board. Serious leak in your game if you keep making these plays.
  • edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: Complex hand requires complex thinkers:
    No where near close this is a fold 100% of the time. Your play on all streets is bad. Why are you playing Q7s vs a LAG? Fold or 3bet PF to define his hand better if you really wana play that rag, calling is terrible and you're just becoming a station on all streets in this hand. I'd expect to see a bluff only about 10% of the time on this board. Serious leak in your game if you keep making these plays.
    Posted by zing
    yah agree pre is awful, to be fair though I was @ the end of a 4 tabling session so meh.

    Weird comment on all streets being bad, what else can I do on the flop except c/c?
  • edited December 2009
    In Response to Complex hand requires complex thinkers:
    Played about 60 hand with villain and so far the match had played pretty nitty. Theres some semi relevant history in very small pots of me c/c'ing flops with like K hi + gutshot & BDFD, so he knows i'm not a folding station. He also thinks my 3b % is very low because he's seen me recently not 3b KJo when he's opening 85%+ of buttons. Tbh, I have been 3b'ing him light in some spots, but he probably percieves me as nitty OOP preflop at least. His perception of how I see him: He probably thinks I think he's a little bluffy because he 3bshove/folded on a 653r board after getting c/r'ed. Apart from this, probably standard, if a little nitty OOP pre. RivalOnlineSite Game #36450376059: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2009/12/09 11:50:15 WET [2009/12/09 6:50:15 ET] Table 'Rhea V' 2-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: 2Wisdomy ($189.90 in chips) Seat 2: verve.oasis ($109 in chips) verve.oasis: posts small blind $0.50 2Wisdomy: posts big blind $1 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to 2Wisdomy [Qc 7c] verve.oasis: raises $2 to $3 2Wisdomy: calls $2 *** FLOP *** [9d Qs 9s] 2Wisdomy: checks verve.oasis: bets $4 2Wisdomy: calls $4 *** TURN *** [9d Qs 9s] [Kd] 2Wisdomy: checks verve.oasis: bets $11 2Wisdomy: calls $11 *** RIVER *** [9d Qs 9s Kd] [Jh] 2Wisdomy: checks verve.oasis: bets $32 2Wisdomy: calls $32
    Posted by LadyFingrs

    Dont really get this hand as it looks like your in the big blind but your playing the whole hand out of position. (probably me being thick but obviously this would change the hand masssively.)
  • edited December 2009
     haha me being thick lol

    dont play alot of 2max cash sorry :-)

  • edited December 2009
    c/c is bad on flop cause of the amount of bad cards you face on the turn which villain is always 2 barrelling you, plus if he does have a hand he's betting a blank turn aswell to protect his hand again so you are hardly ever good with any action on this board and will ALWAYS face atleast flop and turn bets making your hand look so vulnerable and plain awful.

    If I play it like you PF I either donk bet out hoping to take it away on flop or c/r 4/4.5times his bet and take it down there. That's why it's so bad PF cause boards like this put you in such uncomfortable positions especially OOP.
  • edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: Complex hand requires complex thinkers:
    c/c is bad on flop cause of the amount of bad cards you face on the turn which villain is always 2 barrelling you, plus if he does have a hand he's betting a blank turn aswell to protect his hand again so you are hardly ever good with any action on this board and will ALWAYS face atleast flop and turn bets making your hand look so vulnerable and plain awful. If I play it like you PF I either donk bet out hoping to take it away on flop or c/r 4/4.5times his bet and take it down there. That's why it's so bad PF cause boards like this put you in such uncomfortable positions especially OOP.
    Posted by zing

    i disagree. there are hardly any bad cards for us on the turn. The only reason to c/raise flop would be to get it in, which wouldnt be bad if you have the right image. 

     i could be wrong but i think how wide our calling range is on the river is more important than how narrow his valuebetting range is. He expects you to have a much better hand than Q7 here.



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