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Tough river decision

edited July 2013 in The Poker Clinic
It looks like a squeeze play the bet on the river.

Wasnt worried about any1 else in the hand. Do you think this is a fold on the river? Line just didnt make sense
ellopsy Small blind  20.00 20.00 1850.00
Steamer999 Big blind  40.00 60.00 1870.00
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • K
     
deesmall06 Call  40.00 100.00 2230.00
jimb0d1 Call  40.00 140.00 7352.50
erchie Call  40.00 180.00 5350.00
LARSON7 Raise  120.00 300.00 1687.50
ellopsy Fold     
Steamer999 Fold     
deesmall06 Call  80.00 380.00 2150.00
jimb0d1 Call  80.00 460.00 7272.50
erchie Call  80.00 540.00 5270.00
Flop
   
  • 5
  • Q
  • 3
     
deesmall06 Check     
jimb0d1 Check     
erchie Check     
LARSON7 Check     
Turn
   
  • 10
     
deesmall06 Bet  40.00 580.00 2110.00
jimb0d1 Call  40.00 620.00 7232.50
erchie Call  40.00 660.00 5230.00
LARSON7 Call  40.00 700.00 1647.50
River
   
  • K
     
deesmall06 Bet  40.00 740.00 2070.00
jimb0d1 Call  40.00 780.00 7192.50
erchie Raise  450.00 1230.00 4780.00
LARSON7 Call  450.00 1680.00 1197.50
deesmall06 Call  410.00 2090.00 1660.00
jimb0d1 Fold     
erchie Show
  • 6
  • 6
   
LARSON7 Show
  • J
  • K
   
deesmall06 Muck
  • Q
  • 7
   
LARSON7 Win Pair of Kings 2090.00

Comments

  • edited July 2013
    Its definitely a fold on the river. His line makes sense as the king completes draws and some two pair hands. Not many people bluff raising a river vs 3 opponents, kudos to him. Obviously needs to understand his opponents better though.
  • edited July 2013
    HI L

    Well i agree. No offence to anyone involved but I feel that there were a number of errors here imo. 

     With such weakplay/ betting there shouldn't be anything to worry about unless e has made two pair by pairing up K5s say. I think your raise on the button should be bigger tbh. Players ain't folding for 80 more thoughwhy Q7o is even in pot is bemusing to me. 200 at least i feel. By the way KJo is not a great hand tbh either but you do have position.
    If d bets half pot on flop as he should, he takes pot to my mind. I can't help feeling that there were chances missed here(whether it be bet or foldpre!) by all players however.

     I hate these limp pre and minute bet post pots as they just get players spewing chips away. 
    Hope your MTT challenge is going well.
  • edited July 2013

    Off shoot, the only real hands got there are AJ, K x 2 pair. If it was KQ you'd expect a raise pre, same with AJ - not a limp.

    Don't get me wrong, it could be K 5/3/10. K 10 really the only hand that would make sense. I suppose in these games people will limp with any2.

    After the weak raises, i can understand some one trying to steal this. If he can get through me, then from the betting, it looks like he is taking down the pot.

    Given the action over the streets, the only thing i'm worried about is K x 2 pair style hands, i sigh called.

    Mr P!

    Re, my play,

    I'm 3 xing all my hands from the button (if im getting involved from the button)

    KJ on the button in a limped pot, is a reasonable enough holding.

    On the flop, i dont want to be betting into 3 players.

    Hand improves on the turn significantly. 40 bet, happy to peel.

    On the river, it's a tough 1.

  • edited July 2013
    Your raise pre is too small so it will get like 0 folds ever from the limpers. I'm not a believer in this nonsense (imo) about bigger raises being good cos it helps you narrow their range.... yeh like we wanna raise really big so we only get called by good hands :)

    BUT, we're not raising more for 'info' we're raising more for value. As a side effect of this, you'd have probably some small idea of ranges but as it is, they limp and you give them ridiculous odds which means they probably fold 0% of their range and you literally have no idea what they have in a multiway pot with a marginal hand.

    If you're gonna raise, I'd c-bet after all them checks, so hard for people to have hit this board strongly and you wanna thin the field or take it down now. You can fold out loads of better hands... like is A7o really gonna wanna call 5way on that flop?

    Then we can barrel our equity on the turn. Then if we aint won the pot by then, we check back the river and showdown the winner ;)
  • edited July 2013
    Fold pre or raise more. Much more.

    Bet flop.

    Fold river. Almost never good here as played.
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    Fold pre or raise more. Much more. Bet flop. Fold river. Almost never good here as played.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    bet flop into 3 players?
  • edited July 2013
    i play it the same way as you larsson apart from i make it about 220 pre flop
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision : bet flop into 3 players?
    Posted by THEROCK573
    If he's trying to rep a premium made hand with such a small raise pre into numerous limpers then yes, continue that line and bet that flop. It's a pretty nothing board; certainly one that doesn't scare QQ+. 

    If he's just raised it so small pre as he has a reasonable hand and the button, then check it back and look to pick up something/good turn card to bluff.
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision : If he's trying to rep a premium made hand with such a small raise pre into numerous limpers then yes, continue that line and bet that flop. It's a pretty nothing board; certainly one that doesn't scare QQ+.  If he's just raised it so small pre as he has a reasonable hand and the button, then check it back and look to pick up something/good turn card to bluff.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    do you honestly think that players at this level ( no disrespect intended) care what your trying to rep, they see there own cards only. it is a nothing board you are correct but i wouldnt be c betting into 3 opponents.
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    i play it the same way as you larsson apart from i make it about 220 pre flop
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Think i must have 'Sunstroke' but i would be joining the limpers with me 40 chips....
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision : Think i must have 'Sunstroke' but i would be joining the limpers with me 40 chips....
    Posted by goodylad21
    tut tut :-) punish these dirty limpers goodylad dont join them.
  • edited July 2013
    In Response to Re: Tough river decision:
    Off shoot, the only real hands got there are AJ, K x 2 pair. If it was KQ you'd expect a raise pre, same with AJ - not a limp. Don't get me wrong, it could be K 5/3/10. K 10 really the only hand that would make sense. I suppose in these games people will limp with any2. After the weak raises, i can understand some one trying to steal this. If he can get through me, then from the betting, it looks like he is taking down the pot. Given the action over the streets, the only thing i'm worried about is K x 2 pair style hands, i sigh called. Mr P! Re, my play, I'm 3 xing all my hands from the button (if im getting involved from the button) KJ on the button in a limped pot, is a reasonable enough holding. On the flop, i dont want to be betting into 3 players. Hand improves on the turn significantly. 40 bet, happy to peel. On the river, it's a tough 1.
    Posted by LARSON7
    You're assigning them a range on how you play and not on how they play. If you dont think your opponents will show up with AJ, J9, sets and 2 pairs then you will soon find out otherwise.

     What is more likely - A limper decides to bluff the river into 3 people after putting hardly any chips in the pot. Which is totally against type and definitely not typical or a limper hits his hand on the river and because theres so little in the pot tries to get as much value as possible. The second one is the much more likely option as this is how bad players play. They limp and call until they hit, then they raise. Not many try and bluff-raise rivers.


  • edited July 2013
    Also dont show results. It ruins discussion.
  • edited July 2013
    Raise a LOT more pre with those limpers. 

    Add one BB onto your normal raise size for every limper. 
  • edited July 2013
  • edited July 2013
    Raise to 200 pre.  Bet flop.  Barrel the straight draw on the turn.  Aggro pays.  You cant get all passive after a raise pre in pos with so many callers.

    If you are going to take the aggressive route pre flop (you werent uber aggro - but if you are...) then you got to c-bet the flop.  theres too much dead money in there to ignore.  Turn card is brilliant to barrel as well as you have the open ended straight draw giving you a fair few outs.  I probably stick it in on the turn if called on the flop (probably roughly a pot sized bet) or shut down entirely if I miss.  Yes you might get called by the Q7 and miss but if you open pots like this often enough... miss and call down instead of c-betting then you are getting yourself into more trouble than good.  Your usually just handing chips away.

    Maybe im a bit aggro but im pretty sure id be following that line should I decide to play the hand.

    As played I dont mind the call.  Totally villain dependant.  Such a weak bet on the river the other player clearly thinks he can steal.  Yeah fold/call depending on villain.

  • edited July 2013
    we are not iso raising pre to then check flop - it's very very bad
    raise a little more pre -

    gotta ask yoself why you are raising pre

    river is a fold, agree with offshoot - people don't play correctly

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