Ship'n Hypers

TPTP123 · July 2013

Ok - so I am going to attempt again at starting a SkyBlog on hypers starting from the 3s and up. If it gets "hand baggy" in here again, then i'll just start a thread over on the 2+2 PGC forums instead as I expect trash talking over there and will give as good as i get without feeling remotely dirty.

On the sky forums I really don't think its appropriate, so if thread detoriates i'll just delete my posts again and move it over....

P.S. in my last first entry i advised why i'm no longer playing cash, used my broll to decorate house and expecting 2nd born soon.

TPTP123 · August 2013

Okay, so i played a few 3s in July to adapt and get a feel for the HyperHU games on sky and see if its worth playing them in my spare time and general instincts say, yeah, i could prob grind these out if i can get used to:-

a) playing 3+ tables on my laptop to hit some volume

b) make sure i dont start shoving too early or stacking off too light versus the wrong opponents

c) making sure my shove mode criteria is lowered to like 7bb for some really bad opponents

d) play as many games as possible for cashback and to flatten any runbad

b+c are kinda both exactly the same but I think stacking off light at 25bb became a bit of a problem for me when facing deep bluffs early on in the games. And massively increased variance...

In some instances i just couldnt hit the fold button as i knew air was being flushed into the pot by drunk villains, so a call with any A*,Broadway-9+,66+ is far superior over a large sample but i ran pretty bad in these flips, which was annoying especially where after like 3 hands i was making sexy reads.

So here's some numbers for July. For August i'll try to post more reguarly graphs and I found a way to keep an AIEV graph as long as i keep tabs on weaker hands where suckouts occur.

Played 129

Won 68

ITM 52.7%

Rake £19.15

My goals for August, 1) regularly update thread, 2) slam down a chunk of volume 3) start at the 1s and work on my 3-4tabling HU skills without any hotkeys... which will be erm interesting to say the least!! And then once i feel comfortable with my endgame whilst multitabling move back to the 3s

TPTP123 · August 2013

Obv need to achieve a min 5% ROI to cover rake in August and I'll be happy with a real ROI anywhere between -1% to +2% to begin with. Not gonna set any volume targets until i see how the muti tabling goes at the 1s

TeddyBloat · August 2013

Will be following this diary. Im cutting my teeth on the micro stakes hypers and turbos. I'm finding the endgame especially difficult to get to grips with atm.

Best of luck.

Cheers,

TEDDY

TPTP123 · August 2013

Thanks man, feel free to post some hands up in here to discuss. I'm sure others who have played hypers here longer than me will chime in as well. Here's a hand i completelly leveled myself on tonight...

okay - have spent like 10mins straight trying to post the hand... not happening tonight as it keeps becoming HTML, will try tomo

ACEGOONER · August 2013

In Response to Re: Ship'n Hypers:

Okay, so i played a few 3s in July to adapt and get a feel for the HyperHU games on sky and see if its worth playing them in my spare time and general instincts say, yeah, i could prob grind these out if i can get used to:- a) playing 3+ tables on my laptop to hit some volume b) make sure i dont start shoving too early or stacking off too light versus the wrong opponents c) making sure my shove mode criteria is lowered to like 7bb for some really bad opponents d) play as many games as possible for cashback and to flatten any runbad b+c are kinda both exactly the same but I think stacking off light at 25bb became a bit of a problem for me when facing deep bluffs early on in the games. And massively increased variance... In some instances i just couldnt hit the fold button as i knew air was being flushed into the pot by drunk villains, so a call with any A*,Broadway-9+,66+ is far superior over a large sample but i ran pretty bad in these flips, which was annoying especially where after like 3 hands i was making sexy reads. So here's some numbers for July. For August i'll try to post more reguarly graphs and I found a way to keep an AIEV graph as long as i keep tabs on weaker hands where suckouts occur. Played 129 Won 68 ITM 52.7% Rake £19.15 My goals for August, 1) regularly update thread, 2) slam down a chunk of volume 3) start at the 1s and work on my 3-4tabling HU skills without any hotkeys... which will be erm interesting to say the least!! And then once i feel comfortable with my endgame whilst multitabling move back to the 3s
Posted by TPTP123

7bb to start shoving is way too low for hypers, you should be looking at 10bb as std. Not sure if you seen the nash push fold chart but its not a bad start and you can refine it to suit your game.

Personally I now hate hypers, when they came in I had a massive heater and crushed them over 2000 games but I cant beat them now, the edge is miniscule even vs weaker players which means higher variance. The turbo struc sky brought in earlier this year offers something similar with deeper stacks and more gameplay.

You need a sample size of at least 1000 before you can say you are crushing hu sngs but gl, there are a handful of players that do very well at these. I played 1000 turbos in July going for 2000 this month !

TPTP123 · August 2013

c) making sure my shove mode criteria is lowered to like 7bb for some really bad opponents

Yrp - I understand NASH and SAGE.

I prolly didn't word it very well but what i was saying is that I am goin to adjust my default strategy against some really really really bad opponents between 7bb-12bb and not shove standard nash ranges, as they just arent calling wide enough to make it correct in my opinion (in some instances) after experiencing this first hand.

To be honest, i dont think i'll crush by any means. I'll be happy to just beat the rake with a 1% ROI but i expect the rake will crush me!!

ACEGOONER · August 2013

In Response to Re: Ship'n Hypers:

Yrp - I understand NASH and SAGE. I prolly didn't word it very well but what i was saying is that I am goin to adjust my default strategy against some really really really bad opponents between 7bb-12bb and not shove standard nash ranges, as they just arent calling wide enough to make it correct in my opinion (in some instances) after experiencing this first hand. To be honest, i dont think i'll crush by any means. I'll be happy to just beat the rake with a 1% ROI but i expect the rake will crush me!!
Posted by TPTP123

I believe that YOU have to make your opponents call wide. By playing a solid tight style wont work hu, you really gotta expand your pre flop ranges and put them under pressure. Then wait for the mistakes when you got it. Well thats how its supposed to work !

TPTP123 · August 2013

Yeh obv the more ofetn your push the more certain ultra passive players (who i am talking about) will widen there calling range however they won't start calling 7bb eff with Q3s, Q2s,J6s-J5s, Q6o etc... they'll just wait for broadways, Kx, Ax.... in that situation Nash equiliberium isnt as optimal imo. Run the ranges through some equity progs.

Which is why I am saying against ultra passive players i will deviate from standard play you would expect Reg on Reg. Hope that makes sense, ie at 8bb I might start pushing an 12bb eff stack typical nash range... or something like that with reads, notes and a player label on villain.

Nash isn't the be all and end all when it comes to end game imo.

TeddyBloat · August 2013

Nash is -ev from the sb above 7bb, I can see why tptp would play a mixed strategy against what he believes are weaker opponents who arent savvy or aggressive enough to exploit him. Nash assumes you are playing shove / fold too, whereas you have more options available certainly at 10 - 12bb. Against a solid / winning player having an unexploitable strategy becomes more appealing even if its slightly -ev at your eff stack depth. Thats how I see it anyway. If someone is habitually folding for a min raise from 11bbs eff why shove eg 95s? Just have a balanced min raising range imo

Be interested to hear your thoughts ace.

Cheers,

TEDDY

ACEGOONER · August 2013

In Response to Re: Ship'n Hypers:

Yeh obv the more ofetn your push the more certain ultra passive players (who i am talking about) will widen there calling range however they won't start calling 7bb eff with Q3s, Q2s,J6s-J5s, Q6o etc... they'll just wait for broadways, Kx, Ax.... in that situation Nash equiliberium isnt as optimal imo. Run the ranges through some equity progs. Which is why I am saying against ultra passive players i will deviate from standard play you would expect Reg on Reg. Hope that makes sense, ie at 8bb I might start pushing an 12bb eff stack typical nash range... or something like that with reads, notes and a player label on villain. Nash isn't the be all and end all when it comes to end game imo.
Posted by TPTP123

I have had weak passive players call me with 23 off ! I dont play hypers anymore but with turbos I am overshoving some of the time with strong holdings. That can be with 10-13 bb. It knocks your opponent out of their stride. I am also noting most of the time the hands my opponents are calling/shoving with to use in future games.

There is an arguement to actually play passively vs weak players, dont bluff and bet for value. There is one hu player who I have adopted this strategy against and it has yielded over $1000 playing 5 and 10 quid games. Its all player dependant but I think turbos are better for hu as you can exploit your edge more.

Im far from the best hu player on the site, but its soo soft at lower levels any competent player can make a few pennies.

TPTP123 · August 2013

Yeah if i had the free time i'd prob play turbos, mtts and mix in some cash on Thur-Sun but to be honest i am just not anywhere near having the level of free time i'd like to do that. And, banging out some hypers is prob the best approach to poker for me at this moment in time, i know that'll change in future. But family first and all that... gotta be greatful for what i have!!

So the adjustments/goals for august are:-

a) playing 3+ tables on my laptop to hit some volume

b) make sure i dont start shoving too early or stacking off too light versus the wrong opponents

c) making sure my shove mode criteria is lowered to like 7bb for some really bad opponents

d) play as many games as possible for cashback and to flatten any runbad

We'll see how that goes,lol!!

ACEGOONER · August 2013

In Response to Re: Ship'n Hypers:

Yeah if i had the free time i'd prob play turbos, mtts and mix in some cash on Thur-Sun but to be honest i am just not anywhere near having the level of free time i'd like to do that. And, banging out some hypers is prob the best approach to poker for me at this moment in time, i know that'll change in future. But family first and all that... gotta be greatful for what i have!! So the adjustments/goals for august are:- a) playing 3+ tables on my laptop to hit some volume b) make sure i dont start shoving too early or stacking off too light versus the wrong opponents c) making sure my shove mode criteria is lowered to like 7bb for some really bad opponents d) play as many games as possible for cashback and to flatten any runbad We'll see how that goes,lol!!
Posted by TPTP123

Im sure your strat will work, but thought for you I can play 24 turbos an hour 2 tabling.

TPTP123 · August 2013

Thanks for the tip dude, i'll let you know what the same works out for Hypers - still single tabling at the moment whilst i work a few things out. I think the difference in turbos there'll be much more postflop playability in the early levels - which i think...... if i can ever 4-6 table HU this will require much more brain power then just shove/fold with hypers.

Here's a chip EV chart of how i am running so far, this month, in pure chip value. Its quite a pain to maintain it and remember which hands end up sucking out AIPF but we'll see how that goes as I add more tables. I'm still going through patches of making sill mistakes like the hand further below, where i think if i just slow down i can reduce variance. Also I still cant post hands in thread which is rrreeeeaaalll annoying, i just get loads of HTML junk.

Lambert180 · August 2013

Hey mate, few tips when posting hands...

1) Always get them from the browser, not the download client.
2) Always get them from the My Sky Poker /> Hand Histories bit, don't copy them from the HH at the table cos that doesn't work either.
3) Drag from 'Player Name' down to the very bottom right of the HH.

If you do all that, they should show up fine.

TPTP123 · August 2013

Edit: okay success, dragging from the player name and further down then bottom right cell makes a difference, i think if you look carefully the selection changes the further you drag the mouse down and does a little "flicker"... I wasn't selecting the flicker!!!!! obv fail.

So yeah in this hand i just knew the dude was shoving light, ie 88-AA,AKs was very unlikely like maybe 20% of villain range.. like suited broadways, small pairs, SCs, Suited 1 gappers, hands villain values as pretty that he can't let go.... shove like this imo...

Had a similar hand yesterday where a diff dude did this with 86s and I snapped it off in level 1 again with Ax... I'd still take it 100 times out of 100... even thought its only ~51% edge... just irratating that they then insta decline afterwards whereas if i slow down and grind a win out they'll rematch...must remember this in autopilot mode!!!

TPTP123 · August 2013

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
TPTP123	Small blind		15.00	15.00	425.00
x	Big blind		30.00	45.00	530.00
	Your hole cards	J A
TPTP123	Raise		45.00	90.00	380.00
x	All-in		530.00	620.00	0.00
TPTP123	All-in		380.00	1000.00	0.00
x	Unmatched bet		120.00	880.00	120.00
TPTP123	Show	J A
x	Show	Q K
Flop
		3 Q K
Turn
		4
River
		K
x	Win	Full House, Kings and Queens	880.00		1000.00

TeddyBloat · September 2013

August results:

august graph [hypers only]:

i dont class myself as a winnning player and i'm struggling with some people even at the micros, but here's some thoughts on hypers that i've had over the last month:

Variance

was running really well in august but then had a brutal two day downswing, including a 13 game losing streak. had opponents all in whislt holding the better hand in eight of those game, but just could not finish a game. these games can really test your mental mettle during a period of run-bad. saying that there is a little bit of ego-centricity in these spots, as when you make a 10bb shove with JTs and outdraw your oppenents AQ you bury the beat as simply the correct play spiking a good card. When you get 'winning' hands cracked you can make all sorts of excuses as to why your are just soo unlucky and never run well. run-bad is unavoidable; tilt isn't.

Shove / Fold and Stack Depths

12bbs is a deep stack, 15 bbs is a monster stack. this is summat you have to just get your head around. playing exclusive shove or fold at the 12-15bb level is bad. you have a ton of options available to you at these depths. nash is not god here. consider KJs. sure it's an inexploitable shove, but there are hands that we dominate that will fold to a shove but will happily reshove over a frequent minraiser [eg J9s]. i prefer to have a balanced minraise range at these depths whilst also shoving and even limping hands here. nash is -ev above the 7bb level from the small blind anyways. some passive players simply flat too much and i'm inclined to shove the weaker parts of my min-raise/call range against these players and open-fold more hands to keep my min-raise/fold range stronger for when it is flatted. thoughts on this?

Frequency from SB

i'm trying to play closer to 100% of my buttons. the problem i have is that against decent opponents and some fishy ones i'm just not good enough post-flop to be able to do so, so im keeping my ranges stronger by folding the junkiest of suited hands even. i know this is bad, and the best players ive played against play close to 100% from the off, and start folding only when met with aggression or shallower stack depths. one thing i'm mega aware of is the fact that folding a hand is -0.5bb ev straight off. playing a hand has to do worse than this to be a fold. i'm sure that my skill set cant save 72o from that fate so i chose the lesser of two evils and fold. but a decent player might be able to achieve -0.4bb ev, readless, in position with the bottom 10% of hands. that means he loses 0.1bb in expectation everytime he folds a junk hand readless. if he is folding the bottom 10% of his range then that's 1bb/100 hands is it not? which is a pretty big part of his win rate, non? being good enough post in order to play more buttons comfortably and profitably must be a goal.

Aggression / frequency from the BB

Nittyness OOP is bad, folding more than 50% shows an instant profit for your opponent, and that's before you've even take a flop OOP. you have to play hands, take frequent stabs, look for good barrelling spots and 3bet frequent raisers. even if you're not super comfortable doing these things you just have to do it anyway. i'm really working on this part of the game. any thoughts about non-all in 3bets 25bb deep? do we really want to see flops with our KQs? do we keep Ace-rag in our flatting range to keep it balanced on A-high flops, or shove em knowing it's less likely our opponent is holding an ace and hence calling?

Marginal decisions and why k-high is the new A-high

if you're not regularly considering calling k high and even Q high your probably folding too much. heroing rivers is a messy business but you have to make some difficult calls with bottom pair, weak kickers and occassionaly q-high air.

All-in-monkeys

some people are just ridiculously aggressive, 4 bet allin with KT or Ax is done for value against some players. this is where hypers can seem like a lottery, but it's more being confiddent in your range vs your oppenents ranges and tendancies: things that you need to be uber-focused on

basically these games are the nuts for me. love playing em, and even if it costs me £10 a month to do so i will just for the enjoyment. they have more depth then people credit them for and i'm enjoying learning.

cheers,

TEDDY

TPTP123 · September 2013

Hey man,thanks for posting. I've been really cr@p at keepin this updated.

Also i've been playng way too little online and too much live lately to concentrate on this blog

lastly i've been seriously rubbish at tracking my results since playing a few tables at once - all of which have stopped me from posting more in here, thanks for the nudge... will try and read later and give some thoughts

TeddyBloat · September 2013

september results

september graph [hypers only]

ok I had a really good september, and beat the level i am playing over the whole month, apart from the last 4 days where i ran into some bad spots. some thoughts for the month, please feel free to chip in, innit.

variance part deux...

again ran into an extended spell of losing more than my fair share of all-ins. hard to say how much the upswing at the beginning of the month had to do with running better than expected in those spots, probably lots. selective memory would certainly hide those spots from my mind's eye. had some really terrible players win all-in after all-in against me, mainly when they were all-in too. not winning a decent share of your oppenents all-ins is like having titus bramble marshalling your defence: you're going to find it hard going winning a game. unfortunately it's something out of your control largely. ho hum

stack depths

last month i said that 12bbs is a big stack and 15bb a monster. i'd now like to revise that, even. i've started messing around with non shove or fold ranges down to 6bbs. there's tons of playability / stategic options available at these so called shallow depths.

bb aggression

still haven't got a handle on this regarding non-allin 3bets / isolating limps v shoves. might be due to the fact the level i play at is full of people who just love to see flops. i still don't have tons of confidence post flop to be taking inflated pots oop against some opponents. some players i think i have nailed in regard to making unexploitable +ev shoves. but i'm always less confident about non-allin moves from the BB. guess i'll have to take the plunge and experiment more with them next month.

playing bad players v playing good players.

can be a lot more fun, and in some situations easier to play better players. certainly there are spots where you just know your oppenent cant have the ace he's repping and can play exploitatively accordingly. the same can't be said for some players who just click buttons. funny to note also that good players who have an aggressive bb strategy can make you fold buttons, as can a spewy loose passive player who wont ever fold a bb. in both cases i want to take a stronger range to the flop. or maybe i should just be barrelling the loose passive players and winning chips that way.

chubukov

ok this blew my mind. there are stack depths for any hand-holding where you can profitably shove even if you turned your cards face-up; your oppenent can play perfectly against you and still not be able to profit long term. this is great for hypers. it doesn't tell you the best way to play a hand [shoving AA 30bb would be bad], but it does help construct ranges. i aim to have a play around with chubukov at some of the weirder stack depths and see if i can do better than i am now playing shove or fold.

moving up

at the begining of the month i made the decision to start open sitting the micro stakes. big thing for me as i was all over the place results wise, but i felt fairly confident as my b/roll got a nice boost from a couple of MTT binks and i was improving a lot. i went on a big heater for most of the month and earned a little spinnning star on scope for 500 game ave profit in HU micros, 500 games that included a 13 game losing streak. i want to move to the £2 and £3 tournies now. problem is i have had my backside spanked at that level, albeit over a short sample. also the last few days i've not been wining and feel like i've stalled a little in terms of progress. so i'll probably still play micros for the main, whilst adding in a few £2 games if i see value

here's my results by buy-in

if i get back onto consistant winning ways in the micros i'll be taking a little shot at moving up. at the moment confidence has been slapped down by a bit of run-bad / play-bad

cheers,

TEDDY

TeddyBloat · October 2013

OCT GRAPH:

playing better players and variance - again:

continuing to grind HUSNG hypers at the low stakes, was having an ok time of it, noticed a few regs from the midstakes dipping in, but managed to hold my own. then a player who plays at the 10's drops in and i have a torrid time against them, ran into some coolers on the way but generally got bested. but really enjoyed the battle of playing someone really experienced with having to risk too much dough doing so.

then a player who usually plays turbos on full tilt drops in, apparently to get used to the software here. again i have 10 games against a really good player 'on the cheap'. got spanked again, but the games were great. these two players were really polite. i had to run down to answer my flat door and told one that i needed to be away for 2mins, would he mind sittitng out. 5 mins later, i come back to see my stack still intact and him sitting out. both players were happpy to talk strat and give advice about moving up. proper gents, good ploker and i learned tonnes playing em. [incidently the next random i played wished aids on me when i cracked his tens with KJ].

however the bankroll wasn't so pleased.

then went on a big heater and binked 17 hypers in a row, and summat silly like 24 wins in 26. a record for me. apologies to anyone that sat me in that period, the beats i doled out were embarrassing lol. finished the day well up in profit and experience.

taking notes on players

this is invaluable and i would urge all HU players to take and update notes regularly when playing. i have found that these notes can help in MTT's. in the first tournament i won i had tons of notes on the lad i was heads-up with, he couldn't remember playing me and the notes definatley helped me win that tournament. in last monday's DTD i was sat next to a player whose notes said that they often min-donk led bottom/middle pair and would call a raise and check call unimproved on turns and rivers. summat that helped no end when he took that line with 64 on a Jx4 board against my aces.

can be a funny thing though notes, they often give an insight to previous games. one unfamiliar name sat me in a hyper. the notes said

"happy to GII with middle pair on flop." pretty standard so far, but underneath:

"THIS PLAYER IS BONEHEADED" i'm pretty mild mannered so i had to think what sort of sick beat caused that.

second hand a had KK on a T8x board, he donked, i raised, he shoved and turned over 85. turn came 5. and i furiously hammered a few exclamation marks onto the word BONHEADED!!!!!. gg etc.

turbos

since dohhhhhh help get the structures changed on these i've been enjoying them. think they are helping my general play outside of HUSNG's a lot more. you can make more non-all in three bets for one, and experiment more with sizings pre and post. am going to add more into next months sessions.

cheers,

TEDDY

Ship'n Hypers

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