Where to start with Heads up?

robbie1992

Im quiet a regular on this site and have a diary where I state how things have been going on sky and another site.  I play cash nearly all the time with the odd MTT in there.  I would like a change of game sometimes and im looking to get into heads up.  Seems like there is a lot of good heads up players on here so im looking for advice where to start.  I have a book by moshman that I bought ages ago and never got round to reading it so I think I will have a look through there.

Will it possiable make my 6max game worse as I will have less time to work on that and would I be able to multitable my cash with a heads up game on 2 there aswell, as I think you need more focus on heads up and therefore wouldn't be able to multitable all these together?

Also how many buy in should I be looking to start with ??

Thanks

Lambert180

I'd recommend starting at low stakes like £1/£2 games (the rake is 5% in all HU anyway) just cos they're really soft so you can get in some practice/experience against easier opposition, it's also a good idea cos you're new to it yourself. I'd also recommend sticking to either Speeds or maybe Turbos so you get a bit more play.

Stick to playing just them at first so you can fully concentrate on it. HU does need more focus so I only feel I play my best game with 2tables or less.

Learn and know inside out how to play short stack poker cos this is a key element that makes up a large amount of your edge. So many people will do things like raise/fold pre out of a <10xBB stack.... don't do that for instance! Pay attention to which opponents raise/fold too often and will only get it in with a very tight range so open up your 3bet shove range.

I don't think it should make your 6max game worse, if anything (if you're playing deeper HU games) it should give you good experience at board reading, knowing which cards are good to barrel, which ones you should just check/give up on etc.

You should be fine playing £2 games with £100-£150... you can play the slower games with a smaller BR but I'd be cautious at first cos you haven't played them before and so have no idea how you'll get on.

Don't get into the same mental habit of thinking, 'god, I've played for this long and only won this much'... all forms of poker are like this. If you're doing very well at HU SnGs you might have an ROI of 5% which means playing £2 games you are only winning 10p per game, so if you have a +£10 day from only playing 10-15 games, that's a good day.

LARSON7

Just practice on the low stakes HU games, then if you are feeling confident you could move up to the fiver ones.

Turbo ones are the best imo.

It's easy to spot peoples tendencies/ exploit this once you've played someone for a good while and know how they are playing. If someone is passive steal a lot, If someone is aggro just let them bluff away.

The best way to work on them is just by playing them.

If you are raising, best to min raise as this does the same job as a 3x raise. And keep your raises the same throughout.

robbie1992

Yeah if noticed that, so if I've had a good day and only win £10 how do u make ur br grow?

should I not play cash heads up?

1281

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

I'd recommend starting at low stakes like £1/£2 games (the rake is 5% in all HU anyway) just cos they're really soft so you can get in some practice/experience against easier opposition, it's also a good idea cos you're new to it yourself. I'd also recommend sticking to either Speeds or maybe Turbos so you get a bit more play. Stick to playing just them at first so you can fully concentrate on it. HU does need more focus so I only feel I play my best game with 2tables or less. Learn and know inside out how to play short stack poker cos this is a key element that makes up a large amount of your edge. So many people will do things like raise/fold pre out of a <10xBB stack.... don't do that for instance! Pay attention to which opponents raise/fold too often and will only get it in with a very tight range so open up your 3bet shove range. I don't think it should make your 6max game worse, if anything (if you're playing deeper HU games) it should give you good experience at board reading, knowing which cards are good to barrel, which ones you should just check/give up on etc. You should be fine playing £2 games with £100-£150... you can play the slower games with a smaller BR but I'd be cautious at first cos you haven't played them before and so have no idea how you'll get on. Don't get into the same mental habit of thinking, 'god, I've played for this long and only won this much'... all forms of poker are like this. If you're doing very well at HU SnGs you might have an ROI of 5% which means playing £2 games you are only winning 10p per game, so if you have a +£10 day from only playing 10-15 games, that's a good day.
Posted by Lambert180

low  stakes Paul £1/2??

Jesus don't ever search my buyin levels!!

Also find getting a little angry (not in a peed off way) & listening to upbeat music gets me in the mood for HU

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up? : low  stakes Paul £1/2?? Jesus don't ever search my buyin levels!! Also find getting a little angry (not in a peed off way) & listening to upbeat music gets me in the mood for HU
Posted by 1281

Lol I did mean £1 or £2 HU SnGs..... not 200NL HU cash

Smitalos

^^ These things are the nuts.^^

That's all you need to know. Good luck bonsan.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

Yeah if noticed that, so if I've had a good day and only win £10 how do u make ur br grow? should I not play cash heads up?
Posted by robbie1992

Playing really well, playing lots and giving it some time. It's the same in ALL forms of poker, the edge in poker is very small even against bad players, look at any format and it's the same....

DYMs = very good ROI is say 8% = so £2 games you win 16p per game and they take 30 mins per game

HU Turbos = very good ROI is say 5% = so £2 games you win 10p per game and they take maybe 8 mins each

Cash  = very good winrate maybe 10xBB per hour = so at 20NL you're making roughly £2 per hour

MTTs = very good ROI is like 20%+ = so playing £2 MTTs on average is gonna return an average profit of 40p and they take hours and hours. Obv it doesn't run like that, it's more likely lose £2 ten times in a row, then win £50.... lose £2 five times in a row, win £10, lose a few more £2s, then win £70 etc, but long term the winrate is low like ain all forms of poker

Longterm win rates suck when you look at them. You can either run like god to build a roll or bink an MTT but it generally takes time

calcalfold

I would say a br of 50+ buy ins is always a good place to start for hu

liamboi11

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up? : Playing really well, playing lots and giving it some time. It's the same in ALL forms of poker, the edge in poker is very small even against bad players, look at any format and it's the same.... DYMs = very good ROI is say 8% = so £2 games you win 16p per game and they take 30 mins per game HU Turbos = very good ROI is say 5% = so £2 games you win 10p per game and they take maybe 8 mins each Cash  = very good winrate maybe 10xBB per hour = so at 20NL you're making roughly £2 per hour MTTs = very good ROI is like 20%+ = so playing £2 MTTs on average is gonna return an average profit of 40p and they take hours and hours. Obv it doesn't run like that, it's more likely lose £2 ten times in a row, then win £50.... lose £2 five times in a row, win £10, lose a few more £2s, then win £70 etc, but long term the winrate is low like ain all forms of poker Longterm win rates suck when you look at them. You can either run like god to build a roll or bink an MTT but it generally takes time
Posted by Lambert180

still can`t get my head around this seriously,I think most good regs at the likes of 20/30nl must crush that winrate.

but in general what you are saying volume is the main thing?

Lambert180

Well yeah it's about volume, and there are probably lots that smash that short term but we're talking long term and so you gotta take into account that while there will be times they are 30 BIs up in a month, there will be times when you play really well and through things largely out of control you still finish -20BIs for the month.

Obv it depends on number of tables... like winning 16p per game at DYMs might be 1tabling.... but you might play 12 tables which means you don't play quite as well as you're capable of and start only winning 8p per game but that's 8p x 12 instead of 16p x 1 so still works out better.

Likewise people like DTM might have a much better winrate (per table) if he 1tabled, but even if he was only making 1xBB per hour, 1xBB per hour 20tabling is twice as much money as 10xBB but 1tabling.

liamboi11

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

Well yeah it's about volume, and there are probably lots that smash that short term but we're talking long term and so you gotta take into account that while there will be times they are 30 BIs up in a month, there will be times when you play really well and through things largely out of control you still finish -20BIs for the month. Obv it depends on number of tables... like winning 16p per game at DYMs might be 1tabling.... but you might play 12 tables which means you don't play quite as well as you're capable of and start only winning 8p per game but that's 8p x 12 instead of 16p x 1 so still works out better. Likewise people like DTM might have a much better winrate (per table) if he 1tabled, but even if he was only making 1xBB per hour, 1xBB per hour 20tabling is twice as much money as 10xBB but 1tabling.
Posted by Lambert180

got ya

one other question if you know the answer you say 10bb per hour is a good winrate does that decrease as you move up stakes as you will be playing more regs that are usually tougher than your last stake or is the 10bb per hour apply to all levels?

Lambert180

Well I aint played any higher than 30/40NL and it's not like 10xBB is the cap, I'm sure you can earn probably win more at say 4NL

There are quite a few 50/100NL+ regs on the forum, they might like to give their thoughts even if they don't wanna discuss their winrate. But like everything, your win rate will probably go down as you move up stakes unless you keep improving obv to a point where you can crush the player base.

Like a player who is X good is always gonna have a better ROI at £3 DYMs than they will at £20 ones just cos the edges are smaller with the opponents being better.... but then potential edges are SO much bigger in cash. It's not like most/any Sky 100NL regs are the best cash players in the world, so if it's possible that some sicko like Galfond could destroy them, then it's possible anyone can crush them in theory.

robbie1992

just played 5 games of $1.10 heads up, actually 4 $1.10 won the first 3 in a row, lost the 4th and then played a $2.60 won and lost so I was even.... just general thoughts are its going to be hard to build good days profit from heads up sngs.  One because its small games and two because there is going to be a lot of swings/varience.  Might still be worth putting some effort into them just for a change of game.

BTW why does no high player ever reveal what they win? like the well known regs on sky? would be interesting for them to do and diary and keep there balance there.  Wished I could see winrate for cash games on a sharkscope like site, would be interesting to see what everyones is.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Where to start with Heads up?:

Well I aint played any higher than 30/40NL and it's not like 10xBB is the cap, I'm sure you can earn probably win more at say 4NL There are quite a few 50/100NL+ regs on the forum, they might like to give their thoughts even if they don't wanna discuss their winrate. But like everything, your win rate will probably go down as you move up stakes unless you keep improving obv to a point where you can crush the player base. Like a player who is X good is always gonna have a better ROI at £3 DYMs than they will at £20 ones just cos the edges are smaller with the opponents being better.... but then potential edges are SO much bigger in cash. It's not like most/any Sky 100NL regs are the best cash players in the world, so if it's possible that some sicko like Galfond could destroy them, then it's possible anyone can crush them in theory.
Posted by Lambert180

My winrate in the forum cash game last night was about 700bb per orbit.