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Line Check

gazza127gazza127
edited August 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Ive got to assume because there are two callers that one of them has an ace?

Thoughts on the raise size pre?

Any flop without an ace I go all in.
David298 Small blind   30.00 30.00 1850.00
findog123 Big blind   60.00 90.00 380.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
dad01 Raise   120.00 210.00 4905.00
metz13 Fold        
Killswitch Call   120.00 330.00 2980.00
gazza127 Raise   480.00 810.00 1155.00
David298 Fold        
findog123 Fold        
dad01 Call   360.00 1170.00 4545.00
Killswitch Call   360.00 1530.00 2620.00
Flop
   
  • J
  • A
  • 6
     
dad01 Check        
Killswitch Check        
gazza127 Check        
Turn
   
  • 9
     
dad01 Check        
Killswitch Bet   540.00 2070.00 2080.00
gazza127 Fold        
dad01 Fold        
Killswitch Muck        
Killswitch Win   1530.00   3610.00
Killswitch Return   540.00 0.00 4150.00
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Comments

  • calcalfoldcalcalfold
    edited August 2013
    Bit of an assumption, continuation bet imo.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2013
    Raise less or jam

    Postflop ok imo
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited August 2013
    Personally I'm jamming pre.
    I think it's difficult to raise any amount that doesn't commit us to the hand from a less than 20 bigs stack.

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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    Personally I'm jamming pre. I think it's difficult to raise any amount that doesn't commit us to the hand from a less than 20 bigs stack.
    Posted by Jac35
    I have 25 bigs pre.  (1600 chips before the raise)
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited August 2013
    Ah, yeah
    I'm hopeless at reading the hh's 
    Awkward stack size now then.

    Certainly don't like it but once it's checked to me on the flop I think I'm all in.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    Ah, yeah I'm hopeless at reading the hh's  Awkward stack size now then. Certainly don't like it but once it's checked to me on the flop I think I'm all in.
    Posted by Jac35
    Thing is, you're only ever really getting called by an ace, and fold out everything we beat. I did this in the turbo tonight (almost identical, jammed QQ on an A high flop and immediately realised how silly I was, snapped off by A10). 

    It is a tricky spot. We could c-bet smallish, and shut down to any resistance. Checking looks weak but it's difficult to get value from hands we beat and our stack size kinda has us with one arm tied behind our back.
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    Ah, yeah I'm hopeless at reading the hh's  Awkward stack size now then. Certainly don't like it but once it's checked to me on the flop I think I'm all in.
    Posted by Jac35
    Thing is if I get called im almost certainly behind which isnt ideal.  I just never know what to do in these spots.  Its hard to see neither of them having an ace.  An ace takes up most of their range.

    What do you think about the raise size now you know its a 25 bb stack?
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    standard jam imo looks like a squeeze play   this is exactly why i dnt raise 1/4 of are chip stack coz things like this happen on the flop u ave to sigh fold much prefer a jam 
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013

    Thing is if I get called im almost certainly behind which isnt ideal. 


    so 10 10  or jj or ak is never calling u of course they are 
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    standard jam imo looks like a squeeze play   this is exactly why i dnt raise 1/4 of are chip stack coz things like this happen on the flop u ave to sigh fold much prefer a jam 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    I have 26bb.  Surely thats way too much to jam here?  Im only getting called by AA, KK or AK.  Possibly JJ/1010 if they are loose.
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    Thing is if I get called im almost certainly behind which isnt ideal.  so 10 10  or jj or ak is never calling u of course they are 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    on the flop?  I dont think 1010 are calling. JJ crush us, as does AK
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited August 2013
    Reasonable spot to smooth call?

    Goes completely against the default line, but looking at the blinds, one is pretty short and may see a potential to quad up, and the other is playing 30bigs or so, and might try and pounce on the 'weakness' with a squeeze. If either of them gives us action, it gives us the leverage to get our stack in pre flop, potentially with a lot of dead money in there as well.

    Should neither of the above happen, then our hand is very disguised going to the flop. As it turns out, we'd be annoyed with ourselves for slowplaying when the A falls, but at least gives us a chance to get away cheaply and live to fight another day.

    FWIW I think you've played the hand absolutely fine. You're pretty much 100% ahead p/f and get a good amount of chips in, but don't put another chip in when it's likely you've been outdrawn.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    we all play diffeent but i would 100 per cent jam here as it looks weaker then the bet u have done the all in shove looks like a squeeze play and ya dnt wanna get a call when in reality ya want a call 

    the raise u have done loooks huge strength imo u be suprised gazza in these turbo structures what people call a all in with 
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    i thought ya meant preflop if u get called ya almost certainly behind which i disagree on yeah if u bet on flop ya pot committed yaself to the hand 

    with a min raise and a call i think there is enuff chips to add to are stack which are 330 and if u get a call so be it 
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    In Response to Re: Line Check : Thing is, you're only ever really getting called by an ace, and fold out everything we beat. I did this in the turbo tonight (almost identical, jammed QQ on an A high flop and immediately realised how silly I was, snapped off by A10).  It is a tricky spot. We could c-bet smallish, and shut down to any resistance. Checking looks weak but it's difficult to get value from hands we beat and our stack size kinda has us with one arm tied behind our back.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    I totally understand what you're saying here.
    The trouble for me is, what's in the pot and what we have behind. 
    When they check, I'm going to have trouble resisting the shove. Probably a big leak right there. We're the preflop aggressors, are they  calling rag aces? Quite possibly, not sure of the buy in.
    Quite like taking the free card and then betting out on the turn. Aargh, when he leads out.
    Horrible spot.


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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner
    edited August 2013
    I think the 3-bet is a bit big, since it's almost 30% of our stack. It shouldn't be an amount our opponents can call because they'll see that we're committed, so we're making it tough to get paid...That said, you got two callers, so nice 3-bet sizing. lol

    Seriously, though, I think it's a bit too big. Just 360 is probably better in position. 3-bet shoving shouldn't be ruled out with 25BB but it's tough to balance it and you don't especially want people folding all their weaker hands. You've got to be doing it as a squeeze sometimes, as IDONK says.

    Looking to get to cheap showdown post-flop seems fine. The villains' ranges contain lots of Aces and it's going to be tough for either of them to bet without one, three-handed. So folding to any bet is likely fine. You might be bluffed here occasionally but more often it's just a better hand.

    I don't like calling pre-flop as there's so much chance we just go multi-way to a flop. We can hope one of the blinds is going to squeeze, but that doesn't happen as often as they just call or fold... Besides, we have a big hand so lets get more money in pre-flop. :)

    (EDIT: Actually just realised how short the big blind is. Makes flatting pre-flop more reasonable but I still prefer the 3-bet)
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    In Response to Re: Line Check : Thing is if I get called im almost certainly behind which isnt ideal.  I just never know what to do in these spots.  Its hard to see neither of them having an ace.  An ace takes up most of their range. What do you think about the raise size now you know its a 25 bb stack?
    Posted by gazza127
    I think your raise is fine now. I think as you said our hand is too strong and we want action to just shove.
    Not sure an ace has to take up most of their range to be honest. Sure plenty of times they will show up with a weirdly played AQ etc but plenty of times they will have suited connectors and other broadway cards.
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Line Check:
    we all play diffeent but i would 100 per cent jam here as it looks weaker then the bet u have done the all in shove looks like a squeeze play and ya dnt wanna get a call when in reality ya want a call  the raise u have done loooks huge strength imo u be suprised gazza in these turbo structures what people call a all in with 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    It wasnt a turbo.  This was the 2k BH.

    Im looking to get all my chips in as I think im ahead, however I don't think im getting called by worse if I shove 25bb pre (unless AK).  So my plan was to raise quite big, then shove any flop.  However once the second caller came along for the ride and the A hits the flop, I decide that im behind and should find a better spot.

    Thanks for the advice though.  I never really considered shoving pre...
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    bounty hunter u say even more reason to shove pre guys just love bountys :) i think its standard shove pre why give yaself headaches when u can just slide the bar across n shove n be happy about it if no takers 330 added to are stack if called i think alot of times i think we will be ahead here
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited August 2013
    Not a big fan of 3bet jamming QQ here. It gives the opener and the caller such an easy fold with their A10/mid PP type hands. Perhaps a smaller raise, giving the villain/s the belief they can still get a fold vs our button 3betting range could be the line to take. Though are there many hands we are 3bet folding with 25bb? 

    But it's Sky. They ain't gonna 4/bet jam AJs etc when they can just call and spike that Ace ;)

    Borin, I agree, we have premium and a shortish stack, lets get as many chips in as possible. But if the table has been quite active, the trap call can work a treat. I know we risk going 4/5 way to the flop with QQ, and on a passive table it would never be a great play to make. There are 2 great stack sizes in the blinds who could attempt something. It would depend on the table dynamic of course, but it's a play that can, in certain circumstances, can get us paid.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    alot of people are clueless in mtts this site is 1 of the softest i have played tbh why i keep coming back and i think if u jame i wouldnt be suprised if ace j or less calls u meaning jj 1010 etc  they see ya all in n think wow theres a bounty there up for hrabs i call with my marginal hand :)
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner
    edited August 2013
    No, I agree. It's definitely viable to flat and allow the blinds to raise and that's more likely given the short stack on the big blind..

    What I was meaning, before I realised how short he was, is basically that, without knowing that our opponents in the blinds are likely to do that, we shouldn't assume that they're likely to. So, readless, the 3-bet seems better to me.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited August 2013
    raise smaller or raise bigger than you have - shove is ok too

    let em call off as much as possible pre or they may just jam on us with worse

    flop is horrible SPR, may just shove and rep AK as hard as possible
    b/f amount would be so digusting
    you can alwasy spike a Q :)




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