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All things RNG.

unknown_usernameunknown_username
edited August 2013 in Poker Chat
Hi Guys.

I havent posted much on here, so bare with me. I would like to ask the eggheads amoung us a few little questions. The questions have been asked millions of times on sites all over the World. There are loads of conflicting opinions and answers out there.

When a poker RNG starts a new hand at the table, has it already decided on which cards each player gets. Does it know the probable outcomes of the game before each hand is dealt. Or is it all calculated and evaluated at each step of the proccess, ie, everyone gets 2 cards dealt, round of betting and folding then the RNG randomly deals the Flop, more betting folding, then the RNG randomly deals the turn etc. Can players actions affect the RNG etc.

Im not trying to imply that the RNG is fixed or that its self aware or anything like that. I would just simply like to understand the RNG proccess of dealing a hand.

Regards
Scotty.....
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Comments

  • NoseyBonkNoseyBonk
    edited August 2013
    On here the deck is dealt exactly like a 'real-life' deck - ie shuffled once, before the hand is dealt, and then remains as is while the hand plays out.

    I believe some sites do re-shuffles between streets, but not Sky Poker.

    It has been officially confirmed on this site that this is how it works.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    On here the deck is dealt exactly like a 'real-life' deck - ie shuffled once, before the hand is dealt, and then remains as is while the hand plays out. I believe some sites do re-shuffles between streets, but not Sky Poker. It has been officially confirmed on this site that this is how it works.
    Posted by NoseyBonk

    Thanks for the answer NoseyBonk. Im still no wiser lol.
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  • NoseyBonkNoseyBonk
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : Thanks for the answer NoseyBonk. Im still no wiser lol.
    Posted by ek-scott
    Ooookay, but I thought I answered your question :-/
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : Ooookay, but I thought I answered your question :-/
    Posted by NoseyBonk
    i understand what your saying but what i cant get my head round is, the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live. So if the RNG treats the deck as real, it shuffles and deals the cards. Im just trying to understand why and how a RNG can statisticly deal more high action cards to players at a table over and over compared to real life poker. I probably wont find out why cause I think RNGs are closed systems. Its code is written to deal many action hands so it must be predetermend by logorythums and such. So I cant understand how it can be compared to a real live poker deck of cards. Its just something that i have thought about over the years and never looked for an answer.

    Regards
    Scotty...

    PS. Are RNGs closed systems, Its code is only accessable by the inventor or owner ?. I really do need to read a RNG book lol.

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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : i understand what your saying but what i cant get my head round is, the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live. So if the RNG treats the deck as real, it shuffles and deals the cards. Im just trying to understand why and how a RNG can statisticly deal more high action cards to players at a table over and over compared to real life poker. I probably wont find out why cause I think RNGs are closed systems. Its code is written to deal many action hands so it must be predetermend by logorythums and such. So I cant understand how it can be compared to a real live poker deck of cards. Its just something that i have thought about over the years and never looked for an answer. Regards Scotty... PS. Are RNGs closed systems, Its code is only accessable by the inventor or owner ?. I really do need to read a RNG book lol.
    Posted by ek-scott
    pretty much sounds like this whole thread was a roundabout way of saying the rng is fixed?!
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited August 2013
    Here is a simple test for you. Get a pack of cards. Shuffle. Then deal out six hands,a flop, turn, and river and keep up with which hand is ahead at any point. Do this while watching tv or listening to music yo keep you busy and soon you will see all the different outcomes that can happen. Ive done it as a way of teaching myself what sort of card combo's come out and how often K high and A high is the best hand or how often nothing of significance is dealt and how often you see all six hands have playable hands.

    Can you see where this is going? Its random and things happen out of only 52 cards. Try it, you will be surprised.
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  • jonjo75jonjo75
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : i understand what your saying but what i cant get my head round is, the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live. So if the RNG treats the deck as real, it shuffles and deals the cards. Im just trying to understand why and how a RNG can statisticly deal more high action cards to players at a table over and over compared to real life poker. I probably wont find out why cause I think RNGs are closed systems. Its code is written to deal many action hands so it must be predetermend by logorythums and such. So I cant understand how it can be compared to a real live poker deck of cards. Its just something that i have thought about over the years and never looked for an answer. Regards Scotty... PS. Are RNGs closed systems, Its code is only accessable by the inventor or owner ?. I really do need to read a RNG book lol.
    Posted by ek-scott
    JUST NOT TRUE.
                                                                    FIN
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    Here is a simple test for you. Get a pack of cards. Shuffle. Then deal out six hands,a flop, turn, and river and keep up with which hand is ahead at any point. Do this while watching tv or listening to music yo keep you busy and soon you will see all the different outcomes that can happen. Ive done it as a way of teaching myself what sort of card combo's come out and how often K high and A high is the best hand or how often nothing of significance is dealt and how often you see all six hands have playable hands. Can you see where this is going? Its random and things happen out of only 52 cards. Try it, you will be surprised.
    Posted by CraigSG1
    This is exactly what I have often wondered about. Does the Live deck stats match up with the RNG stats. I tend to think RNGs stats/numbers/percentages are much higher than Real Life stats. This would encourage much more action at the online tables, Excites the punters, keeps them coming back for more. Im one of those people who loves to find out how things work lol.

    It always brings a smile to my face when someone starts crying and shouting that the RNG is fixed or rigged or that it favours the chip leader or that it favours certain people/players lol.

    WHY oh WHY would they rig the RNG. Poker sites make lots of money from the players. They want this to always continue. They wouldnt risk their profit or reputation etc on Rigging an RNG. LOLOL

    (wink wink) They dont need to Rig the RNG, they only need to turn down or turn up the dial which controls the Bad Beats that a player receives. (wink). LOL

    Anyway cheers. I will research the workings of a RNG,,,,Someday......

    Regards
    Scotty....
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : JUST NOT TRUE.                                                                 FIN
    Posted by jonjo75

    HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT THIS CONCLUSION.                                                                                


    STILL OPEN
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited August 2013
    You have to remember you are playing 3/4 times as many hands/hour as live. Plus, how can sites 'rig' hands as you have no idea how people will play any particular hand. Some will play 76o from under the gun and others will fold AQ UTG etc, etc, etc....
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited August 2013
    As I'm struggling to cope with  sheer volume of these threads I have come up with a plan.

    As soon as anyone types "RNG", "fixed" or "rigged" a fist comes through the screen of the posters laptop, computer, iPad, whatever, and punches them quite hard on the nose.

    Sort it out please Sky
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  • jonjo75jonjo75
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT THIS CONCLUSION.                                                                                 STILL OPEN
    Posted by ek-scott

    By playing thousands of mtts on here and quite a few live.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited August 2013
    the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live.



    Lol so not true the reason u see more action hands is because more hands are being dealt in half hour u can get like 50 hands dealt in half hour online in a mtt where as live its more like 10 hands so this is why u get more action hands more hands are being dealt live its fold fold fold etc alot diferent 
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  • kb245kb245
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live . Lol so not true the reason u see more action hands is because more hands are being dealt in half hour u can get like 50 hands dealt in half hour online in a mtt where as live its more like 10 hands so this is why u get more action hands more hands are being dealt live its fold fold fold etc alot diferent 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    fkinnnn bullshitt
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    As I'm struggling to cope with  sheer volume of these threads I have come up with a plan. As soon as anyone types "RNG", "fixed" or "rigged" a fist comes through the screen of the posters laptop, computer, iPad, whatever, and punches them quite hard on the nose. Sort it out please Sky
    Posted by Jac35
    No-one on this thread is implying anything about dodgey RNGs LOL.

    Im simply trying to find out how something works. I have often wondered as to the workings of a RNG. Its just the way my brain works. When I see something for the first time, my reaction isnt the usual "WOW check that out", its more like "HOW DOES THAT WORK". I just havent got round to finding out the workings of a RNG yet and just decided to ask some questions about it.

    I have never really entertained the idea of rigged RNGs. There will always be some who will beleive its rigged. Im just interested in how and why it does what it does.

    Scotty...


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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar
    edited August 2013
    "the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live."

    "I tend to think RNGs stats/numbers/percentages are much higher than Real Life stats."

    "They dont need to Rig the RNG, they only need to turn down or turn up the dial which controls the Bad Beats that a player receives."

    If the above quotes from yourself do not imply the rng is rigged etc then I need to go back and learn English The purpose of an rng is meant, by design, to produce random results  without bias. By ensuring more action cards are dealt preflop then the rng would not be random. The RNG would be "fixing" the outcome!
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    "the RNG tends to deal lots of cards like AK AQ pocket pairs preflop to the players at the table. This is to encourage action or betting. This happens way more here than it does playing live." "I tend to think RNGs stats/numbers/percentages are much higher than Real Life stats." "They dont need to Rig the RNG, they only need to turn down or turn up the dial which controls the Bad Beats that a player receives." If the above quotes from yourself do not imply the rng is rigged etc then I need to go back and learn English The purpose of an rng is meant, by design, to produce random results  without bias. By ensuring more action cards are dealt preflop then the rng would not be random. The RNG would be "fixing" the outcome!
    Posted by jdsallstar


    LOL Lets try this again. Im not saying anything about RIGGED RNGs or game fixing or favoritism. You implied that I was implying that the RNG was rigged in some round about sort of way. Let me be clear on this. IM NOT SUGGESTING OR IMPLYING ANYTHING ABOUT THE RNG BEING RIGGED , FIXED , DODGEY , SENTIENT. I hope thats clear to everyone.

    Also I must point out that the above quote I wrote regarding the "Turn up or Turn down Dial used to control the Severity of Bad Beats a player receives" was written as a JOKE, HUMOUR, JEST.. LoL.
    SKY dont control Bad Beats by way of a DIAL. The Bad Beat Dial doesnt exist ok lol. They just use a simple ON OFF switch. LOL Joking.

    Joking aside. I fully grasp the concept of what the Random Number Generator is supposed to do. The RNG takes a full deck of cards. The RNG shuffles and then deals the cards to x amount of players seated at the poker table. Each and every RNG action is done RANDOMLY. The RNG cannot predict, change or affect the outcome in any way. The RNG does not feel or think or choose, its not sentient. The RNG can only follow its programmers code. Which is to RANDOMLY deal cards to online players. This is all done in a digital enviroment.

    OK so I hope everyone more or less agrees at this point. Finally, we have arrived at the stage where I have questions and Im hoping you good folks can help.

    I dont understand the RANDOM part of the RNG. How does the Software Code acheive a random outcome. To my understanding, the concept of randomness is thus, the final outcome of something/anything cannot be predicted or predetermend because it is constantly affected by changing external forces or changing parameters, therefore the final outcome is truely random.

    Now Im not a scientist or a mathmatichan, Im not saying Im right or wrong. Im simply trying to understand.

    I assume that the RNG must use some kind of mathamatical logarithm or a scientific thingymajig to determine a random outcome. Can someone please explain this part to me. Can it be explained or is it a Company Secret they dont want you to know about.

    Am I on the right road thinking this is how it works or am I just totally wrong.

    Scotty.
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  • NoseyBonkNoseyBonk
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : No-one on this thread is implying anything about dodgey RNGs LOL. Im simply trying to find out how something works. I have often wondered as to the workings of a RNG. Its just the way my brain works. When I see something for the first time, my reaction isnt the usual "WOW check that out", its more like "HOW DOES THAT WORK". I just havent got round to finding out the workings of a RNG yet and just decided to ask some questions about it. I have never really entertained the idea of rigged RNGs. There will always be some who will beleive its rigged. Im just interested in how and why it does what it does. Scotty...
    Posted by ek-scott
    I did answer your question in my first reply. Since then the threads gone a bit whacko.

    If you want to know about the great mystical card-shuffle routines...

    There's a lot of incredible nonsense written about them. I've seen stuff like "a 32-bit computer can't even count as high as the number of different permutations of a 52 card shuffle", which is 1) wrong and 2) irrelevant.

    The routine needs to randomly* shuffle an array of 52 elements - a 'virtual' deck of cards.
    It's so basic (no programming pun intended) it's O Level computing. Actually it's not even that. It's what we did for school homework in 1984, written in fully optimized Z80 assembly language in less than 60 minutes, and that included loading the assembler from tape. And that still left time to get out on the Grifter to do some Knock And Run before dark.



    * needs a random seed.
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  • NoseyBonkNoseyBonk
    edited August 2013
    (Ok, new post while I was writing).

    Most routines will work from a random 'seed' that is considered 'random enough'. Truely random seeds are hard to come by but they do exist. IMO a computer's 'random enough' is as good, if not better, than a human's 'random enough' - ie, a person who sits at a table and shuffles real cards to the best of their ability.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: All things RNG.:
    In Response to Re: All things RNG. : I did answer your question in my first reply. Since then the threads gone a bit whacko. If you want to know about the great mystical card-shuffle routines... There's a lot of incredible nonsense written about them. I've seen stuff like "a 32-bit computer can't even count as high as the number of different permutations of a 52 card shuffle" , which is 1) wrong and 2) irrelevant. The routine needs to randomly* shuffle an array of 52 elements - a 'virtual' deck of cards. It's so basic (no programming pun intended) it's O Level computing. Actually it's not even that. It's what we did for school homework in 1984, written in fully optimized Z80 assembly language in less than 60 minutes, and that included loading the assembler from tape. And that still left time to get out on the Grifter to do some Knock And Run before dark. * needs a random seed.
    Posted by NoseyBonk
    AAHHHhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa.... Finally the answers I been looking for.

    Thank you NosieBonk...

    PS. A Grifter wasnt just a bike. It was also good at building your muscles up. It weighed a TON lol. The Volvo of the 80s Bikes.
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