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Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat
It a shame that the last thread got shut down as it 'served no purpose', despite the fact that an interesting discussion could have come of it. Throughout the debate I think we could have ruled out collusion, changed the OP title and removed references to aliases. But no. So I thought I'd try to continue anyway.
I had previously posted that in the BB (1k) if a short stack shoves UTG for 2k, that it's a standard call if you've got about 7k+ behind and are holding anything other than what hot-otomer would describe as 'rubbish' (jeez have you seen the garbage it calls 'top cards'?....).
The_Don90 replied than with 10k+ he'd call with any two cards, and I agree.
But when do we fold? I omitted to consider the other table in my answer (the complaint had come from the short stack at the other table). I had said that there is value in allowing a small amount of risk for the reward of removing another place, but if we are on the bubble and the other table has other shorter stacks etc then there really is no reason to be the one to make the call, let it go round, we're guaranteed getting through.
These are my thoughts, not structured well enough to generate further discussion perhaps, but I wanted to continue from the other thread that I felt was getting somewhere (given there is a distinct lack of 'useful' poker chat here in Poker Chat).
I had previously posted that in the BB (1k) if a short stack shoves UTG for 2k, that it's a standard call if you've got about 7k+ behind and are holding anything other than what hot-otomer would describe as 'rubbish' (jeez have you seen the garbage it calls 'top cards'?....).
The_Don90 replied than with 10k+ he'd call with any two cards, and I agree.
But when do we fold? I omitted to consider the other table in my answer (the complaint had come from the short stack at the other table). I had said that there is value in allowing a small amount of risk for the reward of removing another place, but if we are on the bubble and the other table has other shorter stacks etc then there really is no reason to be the one to make the call, let it go round, we're guaranteed getting through.
These are my thoughts, not structured well enough to generate further discussion perhaps, but I wanted to continue from the other thread that I felt was getting somewhere (given there is a distinct lack of 'useful' poker chat here in Poker Chat).
Comments
Yes, I suuppose all those things COULD have been done, but the whole thrust of the thread suggested that two players had colluded, & it named them, so it was CORRECT to close the thread.
There was no credible evidence of any collusion.
Just because players appear to play, in the view of others, sub-optimally, does not mean they are colluding. There could be a hundred or more valid & legitimate reasons why the hands were played as they were.
It is unforgiveable to name the players in those circumstances. How would the OP have liked being called a cheat because he played in a (possibly) non-optimal way? If the boot were on the other foot........
If someone thinks foul play is at hand, they need to report it to Customer Care. I would suggest they need credible evidence before doing so though.
Both players have a long history on this site (see the reasoned comments by GaryQQQ) & they deserve to be protected from allegations which lack credible evidence. If someone thinks they were behaving improperly, the ONLY route is Customer Care.
Such threads will ALWAYS be closed you cannot "name & shame" without proof.
The mere fact that you consider there is room for an interesting discussion about calling ranges says it all. We ALL play poker differently, & we have every right to spend our money any way we like, as long as it is within the Rules.
I am sure someone, intolerant & oblivious to the views of others, will come along & say Player X HAD to call. They'd be wrong. They did not HAVE to do anything.
PS - Good luck Mike if you are playing any of the Summer UKOPS. I'll be playing a couple of them again tonight, maybe see you then.
Hi Mike,
Yes, it was a shame it had to be closed, but the Mod acted perfectly correctly.
There is an odd sort of role-reversal here. The Mod is criticised for closing the thread, but the OP had potentially libelled two players .....! In no way should the Mod be taking criticism here, it was not him that spoke out of turn.
The world of Online is a very odd & unbalanced place!
Anyway, I'm glad you have raised the general discussion about ranges, it is a good debate.
Going back to original post if you have 10 bigs should you really be calling anything? If they are UTG and shove you could say they have anything they just don't want the bb to hit them, but far likely they have picked up an ACE,KING or QUEEN and stuck it in.
Sat here by the pool in Lanzarote with any 2 half descent cards I'd call and book everyone their seat :-)
Certainly meant no malice to the mod, I said it was a shame that the thread was closed. It was also a shame that the original thread named players and asked whether collusion was involved, as they could have easily vanilla coated their question and started this very discussion.
Poker is a dog-eat-dog game, to maximise profits you have to be selfish and do what's best for you, not what's best for short stacks on other tables.
I see that in a different light.
At least one of the 2 players has been here for ever, & is known by just about every player on the site. He also plays at most of the SPT's. That was my (perhaps badly made) point. It was a secondary point, but relevant, imo - if he was the sort of chap to collude, I think he would have been sussed a long time ago. That excepted, of course, you would be perfectly correct.
My primary point was that you strongly suggested they were colluding. Without credible evidence, you just cannot & should not say such things. You can very easily damage a man's reputation for life. Repairing his reputation is much harder.
Saying he played badly (in your opinion) is a COMPLETELY different thing. As many have suggested, the situation on the other Table was also very relevant. One of the two players you were cross with is a VERY experienced Satellite player, & once won a £10,0000 WSOP Package via Satellites here.
I just think we should not rush to judgement in such matters, & we definitely should not make such accusations in public. It is not at all nice to be on the wrong end of such accusations .
If you have concerns as to the game play of the 2 players, I strongly urge you to complain to Customer Care. That is the correct, & only, course of action.
Anyway, that was yesterday - hope you are in a few of tonight's UKOPS Events. If so, see you shortly, I hope, & good luck.
Posted by GaryQQQ
If you have 12xBB and it's the stone bubble (3 players and 2 seats)...
One scenario is the other 2 villians have 2xBB and 12xBB in which case it's an easy call with ATC imo because one of the big stacks has to take a stand and we are getting the price and have to go for it now while he's as short as he's ever gonna be. We fold here and he goes from 2xBB to 3.5xBB because he stole the big and small. Are you gonna hope the other guy does the dirty work? Cos what if he's thinking exactly the same as you... in a matter of like 5 hands that shorty could easily be on 7-8xBB if both big stacks sit back waiting and you've thrown away a pretty low risk chance to get a seat and he is now completely back in the game.
Another scenario, BOTH villians have 2xBB, in this case we might be more likely to fold trash hands cos they will HAVE to clash with each other at some point or blind down. They can't both double up if we keep folding.
My view is that so much depends on other stacks on other tables. For example, in a typical Primo Semi Final, there may be 100 runners & 20 seats available. When it reaches the bubble, there are four tables. Normally the blinds will be 1.5k/3k with an average stack of 10k. This means that almost certainly someone is going to be all in for less than one bb within an orbit on at least one of the tables.
I pretty much know that an 11k stack makes you safe and that an 8k stack makes you over 90% safe, provided that you don't play a hand. This doesn't answer the question due to the variables but my default position is that over 15k, I don't play any hand. At 11k, I shove AA, KK & QQ (call AA & KK). At 8k, I also shove JJ, TT & AK & call AK & QQ.
I don't know any more details than what have been posted on this thread but I think I would fold here many times as would many players.
Unrelated, but in the same department I suppose, I was playing one of the smaller UKOPS Events last night. I was going along quite nicely, & raising it up pre - a LOT - certainly by my standards. But I was amusing myself by varying the amounts I raised each time. I actually did it in sequence to see if anyone noticed. My first raise was 2x, then I went 3x, 4x, & 5x. I went back down the scale then - 5x, 4x, 3x, 2x. Not a soul said a word, we were all just chatting & having a fun time.
Suddenly one player (seemingly new here, not seen him/her before) says....
"are you on drugs tikay? You are so dumb. Don't you know raising 5x is really really dumb?"
Bit of a debate then ensued, when he tried to convince me that there is ONLY ONE OPTIMAL RAISE SIZE in poker. 2.2x
He was serious, too. I tried to tell him about my cat. I skin it, regularly, but always different ways, just to mix it up a bit, to balance my cat skinning range, so to speak.
There is never a you must always in poker strategy.
Anyway Mr Ruby, you've started a useful debate now, & one or two have realised that these things are rarely as cut & dried as they may at first sight seem.
Take care now.