Pot Limit Holdem

Sky_Poker

What are your thoughts on Pot Limit Holdem?

Do you ever play it? If so why? If not, why not?

Should we actually have PL tables on Holdem?

Tikay10

What are your thoughts on Pot Limit Holdem? Love it to bits.

Do you ever play it? Whenever I can.

If so why? I MUCH prefer it to NLH, & am far better at PL than NLH.

If not, why not? N/A

Should we actually have PL tables on Holdem? YESSSSSSS please!

DOHHHHHHH

Is there that much difference?

In mtts definitely, I would have no idea how to adapt if I wasn't allowed to open shove or 3b shove when playing 8-25xbb.

In cash it's quite rare to see people overbetting the pot at all anyway.

rancid

just scrap it, waste of everyone's time

GREGHOGG

Not sure there is much call for PL Holdem on Sky Poker to be honest.

I can appreciate that it is a technical game- PL Holdem is like test match cricket, whereas Turbo Bounty Hunters are like 20/20 maybe ?

I would happily play it, and adapt, but like JJ says, proceeding post flop would be a bit trickier in shallow mtts because we cannot just do the jam thing where we would in NLHE. Also agree that cash, on sky, would not be much different. 

Talon

 I for one prefer pot limit. Coming from the 4 card games where it is standard i have got used to it and the nuances it provides.

  To give a few examples. If you have a set against an oesd or flush draw then they have about 33% chance of winning. With pot being your maximum bet you are compelled to give them odds of 2 to 1 which is what they need to call. So it much harder to push people off draws, but also encourages more callers which can help as well.
  Secondly in mtts when you have about 8-15BB you noramlly have an open shoving stack but with pot limit these sizes turn into a 3-bet shoving stack instead because you just can not open for enough.

  It changes the game and changes the dynamics and this makes it more enjoyable. Also it does require more thinking and planning in a hand. Odds and bet sizing become paramount.

 Can understand why some would not like it but definite yes for me.

goldnballz

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

 I for one prefer pot limit. Coming from the 4 card games where it is standard i have got used to it and the nuances it provides.   To give a few examples. If you have a set against an oesd or flush draw then they have about 33% chance of winning. With pot being your maximum bet you are compelled to give them odds of 2 to 1 which is what they need to call. So it much harder to push people off draws, but also encourages more callers which can help as well.   Secondly in mtts when you have about 8-15BB you noramlly have an open shoving stack but with pot limit these sizes turn into a 3-bet shoving stack instead because you just can not open for enough.   It changes the game and changes the dynamics and this makes it more enjoyable. Also it does require more thinking and planning in a hand. Odds and bet sizing become paramount.  Can understand why some would not like it but definite yes for me.
Posted by Talon

Agree with this. I play a few PLH tournies on a different site & the standard is pretty terrible. Lots of players do not adapt. And lots of players love to make it 'pot' pre-flop (3.5xBB) even though its still much better to min raise in the mid-late stages of a tourny.

unknown_username

Yes to pot Limit Holdem mtt's,   big NO to cash tho, as this will be very very boring to play on cash tables!!!!

Gl all at the tables

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

Is there that much difference? In mtts definitely, I would have no idea how to adapt if I wasn't allowed to open shove or 3b shove when playing 8-25xbb. In cash it's quite rare to see people overbetting the pot at all anyway.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Wow!

Guess that is why I enjoy it so, & do better in PL than NL, because not so many folks adapt to it, or understand the nuances.
 
Each to their own of course, but yes, the difference is chalk & cheese.  

DOHHHHHHH

ms.tree/rancid did u misread the title?

pot limit rly isn't that different in cash, watch a  NL table for an hour and count how many times you see someone overbet the pot.

Doubt you'll see it more than 2/3 times.

Maybe you're thinking of fixed limit?

edit* The first open can only be 2.5xbb I think, as opposed to most peoples standard 3x.

That's it.  

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

 I for one prefer pot limit. Coming from the 4 card games where it is standard i have got used to it and the nuances it provides.   To give a few examples. If you have a set against an oesd or flush draw then they have about 33% chance of winning. With pot being your maximum bet you are compelled to give them odds of 2 to 1 which is what they need to call. So it much harder to push people off draws, but also encourages more callers which can help as well.   Secondly in mtts when you have about 8-15BB you noramlly have an open shoving stack but with pot limit these sizes turn into a 3-bet shoving stack instead because you just can not open for enough.   It changes the game and changes the dynamics and this makes it more enjoyable. Also it does require more thinking and planning in a hand. Odds and bet sizing become paramount.  Can understand why some would not like it but definite yes for me.
Posted by Talon

This is what baffles me, you can't bet enough to force opponents into making mistakes by calling.
Yeah everyone come a long with ya draws, no problem
So essentially people are playing perfectly against each other because it's pot limit.

sounds daft

like what about PLO, surely you must have some leverage in bet sizing.


pot limit for mtt's is just daft.

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

ms.tree/rancid did u misread the title? pot limit rly isn't that different in cash, watch a  NL table for an hour and count how many times you see someone overbet the pot. Doubt you'll see it more than 2/3 times. Maybe you're thinking of fixed limit? edit* The first open can only be 2.5xbb I think, as opposed to most peoples standard 3x. That's it.  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

If I couldn't overbet pot I think I would cry

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : If I couldn't overbet pot doh would have more money.
Posted by rancid

fyp!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

ms.tree/rancid did u misread the title? pot limit rly isn't that different in cash, watch a  NL table for an hour and count how many times you see someone overbet the pot. Doubt you'll see it more than 2/3 times. Maybe you're thinking of fixed limit? edit* The first open can only be 2.5xbb I think, as opposed to most peoples standard 3x. That's it.  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Easy way to remember this.

In PL, the first open (or "POT") it is 7 x Small Blinds, or 3.5 Bigs. For every limper, add ONE BB or 2 SB.

Effectively...."pot" in an unopened pot is....
 
1 x BB

1 x SB

Our "call" of 1 x BB

So we CALL 1 x BB, then bet the POT which is now 2.5 x BB, so that = 3.5 BB. or 7 x SB.  

Word of warning. If playing "Live". NEVER ask the Dealer "how much is it to pot?" Bit of a giveaway that you are a PL newbie.

rancid

so pot is pot + our call if we are cold

if we in blinds we do not add our call ?

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : Easy way to remember this. In PL, the first open (or "POT") it is 7 x Small Blinds, or 3.5 Bigs. For every limper, add ONE BB or 2 SB. Effectively...."pot" in an unopened pot is....   1 x BB 1 x SB Our "call" of 1 x BB So we CALL 1 x BB, then bet the POT which is now 2.5 x BB, so that = 3.5 BB. or 7 x SB.   Word of warning. If playing "Live". NEVER ask the Dealer "how much is it to pot?" Bit of a giveaway that you are a PL newbie.
Posted by Tikay10

Thank you for the clear explanation, but I still think I would struggle in a live PL game. I have had numerous opportunites to play live PLO for example but have never had the confidence to try it in case i have to say "Dealer, what is pot please?"

Guess there is only one way to learn it... And that is to jump in next time. What is the worst that can happen? 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

so pot is pot + our call if we are cold if we in blinds we do not add our call ?
Posted by rancid

That's it.

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : Wow! Guess that is why I enjoy it so, & do better in PL than NL, because not so many folks adapt to it, or understand the nuances.   Each to their own of course, but yes, the difference is chalk & cheese.  
Posted by Tikay10

I agree with DOHHHH, there really isn't that much difference in the cash format. 

Other than the standard of play generally being worse (in my experience) and people announcing 'POT' or BASHING the pot button rather than the 3/4 button for no other reason than 'it's called 'POT LIMIT innit' there isn't that much difference.  

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : I agree with DOHHHH, there really isn't that much difference in the cash format.  Other than the standard of play generally being worse (in my experience) and people announcing 'POT' or BASHING the pot button rather than the 3/4 button for no other reason than 'it's called 'POT LIMIT innit' there isn't that much difference.  
Posted by Curt360x27

That would depend how deep you are, or are not, playing.
 
Not a lot of point "shorting" if you play PL, that boat ain't ever gonna float.

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : That would depend how deep you are, or are not, playing.   Not a lot of point "shorting" if you play PL, that boat ain't ever gonna float.
Posted by Tikay10

So why don't u have 200/300bb pl tables on sky.

would make it so much intresting on PLO

BorinLoner

Just to make a point:

Of course you can price out draws if you bet full pot. The odds of a flush draw on the flop are not 33%, because those are the odds of hitting on either the turn or river. So if you call two full-pot bets, you're not calling getting the odds you need. You're only about 20% to hit on either street so you're twice calling a 20% shot getting 33% pot odds. If you call those bets you still need to get more if you hit your hand.

That's no different to NLHE.


I wonder how much more demand there is for online pot limit or fixed limit hold 'em than for Stud, Razz, etc...

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

Just to make a point: Of course you can price out draws if you bet full pot. The odds of a flush draw on the flop are not 33%, because those are the odds of hitting on either the turn or river. So if you call two full-pot bets, you're not calling getting the odds you need. You're only about 20% to hit on either street so you're twice calling a 20% shot getting 33% pot odds. If you call those bets you still need to get more if you hit your hand. That's no different to NLHE. I wonder how much more demand there is for online pot limit or fixed limit hold 'em than for Stud, Razz, etc...
Posted by BorinLoner

The irony of it all, so why play PL hold em ?

Like NL hold em with the balls ripped away

beaneh

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : The irony of it all, so why play PL hold em ? Like NL hold em with the balls ripped away
Posted by rancid

you really dont get poker lol

both betting structures require similar skillsets, just some structure specific tweaks. 

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : you really dont get poker lol both betting structures require similar skillsets, just some structure specific tweaks. 
Posted by beaneh

Your probably right

 I just don't get why you would want to play pot limit hold em instead of nl hold em.

Maybe you could enlighten my darkness and explain why no one play's pot limit hold em if it's so great

Everythig you can do in pot limit you can do in no limit, so......why would you play a game where you only have a limited amount of options.


idk i just don't get the appeal

beaneh

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : Your probably right  I just don't get why you would want to play pot limit hold em instead of nl hold em. Maybe you could enlighten my darkness and explain why no one play's pot limit hold em if it's so great Everythig you can do in pot limit you can do in no limit, so......why would you play a game where you only have a limited amount of options. idk i just don't get the appeal
Posted by rancid

preflop you can jam as many bbs as you want in NL. 

you cannot do this in PL ldo, so now realise you have to focus less on the preflop and more on the postflop.

+ you can never overshove at any stage to try and get folds so your strategies have to be more concerned with playing multiple streets.

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : preflop you can jam as many bbs as you want in NL.  you cannot do this in PL ldo, so now realise you have to focus less on the preflop and more on the postflop. + you can never overshove at any stage to try and get folds so your strategies have to be more concerned with playing multiple streets.
Posted by beaneh

yeah I get that, just feels like someone has come a long and taken some of your weapons away

Suppose I get why some people would prefer it and get away from the bish bash bosh poker of nl.

pl is kinda more refined

Lambert180

I assume there's no limit to how many raises can be made pre tho Bean?

So in theory you can still get as many BBs in pre as you want (if the opponent is willing) cos most spots aren't like 'I'm gonna ship 100xBB over a 3bet' so it's gonna go 3bet, 4bet, 5bet etc and usually a 4bet/5bet would not be pot sized anyway so what stops you still getting big stacks in pre?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

I assume there's no limit to how many raises can be made pre tho Bean? So in theory you can still get as many BBs in pre as you want (if the opponent is willing) cos most spots aren't like 'I'm gonna ship 100xBB over a 3bet' so it's gonna go 3bet, 4bet, 5bet etc and usually a 4bet/5bet would not be pot sized anyway so what stops you still getting big stacks in pre?
Posted by Lambert180

consider how often in NL you see a 4 bet then relative to that % a 5bet, then relative to that a 6bet etc.

it'd be fun to try and create 9 bet strategies for pot limit! remember it's pot limit max each bet so you could all still fling dat phoo at each other and minraise.

Refined is a good word rancid, it just removes some of the big overbets. which can be seen as good or bad for a weaker player, in that they cant just shove preflop but nor can their clever opponent bet bigger than the pot post. 

rancid

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem:

In Response to Re: Pot Limit Holdem : consider how often in NL you see a 4 bet then relative to that % a 5bet, then relative to that a 6bet etc. it'd be fun to try and create 9 bet strategies for pot limit! remember it's pot limit max each bet so you could all still fling dat phoo at each other and minraise. Refined is a good word rancid, it just removes some of the big overbets. which can be seen as good or bad for a weaker player, in that they cant just shove preflop but nor can their clever opponent bet bigger than the pot post. 
Posted by beaneh

this is why 300bb deep pot limit hold em could be a bit intresting

F_Ivanovic

Annoys me so much in PL omaha when people just jam the pot button. Well, when I say annoy I should mean to say ecstatic because 90% of players will only be potting with the nuts/nut draws.