Is this standard

calcalfold

Seem to remember notes just saying "seems to bet out hands"

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Ecclesboy	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.37
x	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.62
	Your hole cards	A Q
jimmyttt	Fold
bellskee	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.07
calcalfold	Raise		£0.20	£0.30	£4.27
Ecclesboy	Fold
x	Call		£0.16	£0.46	£3.46
bellskee	Fold
Flop
		3 A 2
x	All-in		£3.46	£3.92	£0.00
calcalfold	Call		£3.46	£7.38	£0.81
x	Show	A K
calcalfold	Show	A Q
Turn
		K
River
		J
x	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and Kings	£6.82		£6.82

Phantom66

With such a huge overbet and such little invested in the hand it is an easy fold.

... unless you have notes that say he is prone to large overbet bluffs.

Villain has such a wide range of possible hands with only your raise and the call from BB to go on.

I think at these levels it easy to talk yourself into the villain having nothing and playing badly, when in reality they most likely have something.

DOHHHHHHH

As standard as it gets. nh, wp, ul etc

IDONKCALLU

usually with this overbet jam its a sign from opponent of fook i got kk and ace hit the flop ffs i go all in hoping he hasnt got an ace  i would snap it of just ul

Phantom66

@IDONKCALLU and @DOHHHHHHHH I totally respect you guys, so happy to be wrong as long as I learn from it myself.

Folding TP 2nd Kicker to an all-in overbet would be considered a leak on my part?

I'd guarantee losing 20p instead of calling to win £3.80 in that situation. In my mind the play is irrational and I don't risk the buy-in on a hunch.

My hope before making that sort of call would be to have some sort of knowledge on opponent. Snap call if I have seen them overbet with a bluff or weak hand - or if they appear to be on tilt.

I guess the real point is over time how often is it a good call and how often is it a bad call and you have way more hands under your belt and so I trust your instincts.

I thought my looseness was a big leak for me in cash.

- Am I actually too nitty?

hhyftrftdr

I can't call quick enough here at 4nl.

BorinLoner

Make better notes calcalfold.

When you say bet out, do you always mean donk-bet? The "hands" that he leads with, are they always nutted hands or are they sometimes marginal? How big are these leads normally? What sort of flop texture?

Readless it's got to be a call because we should be thinking it doesn't make sense for him to open-shove 8x pot with sets, straights or two-pairs. We'd also think it's unlikely that he's holding AA or AK since he didn't 3-bet pre-flop.

We'll determine after we've made the call whether we should make these calls against this opponent in future, however we're pretty sure this is a long-term +EV call, readless.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Is this standard:

Readless it's got to be a call because we should be thinking it doesn't make sense for him to open-shove 8x pot with sets, straights or two-pairs. We'd also think it's unlikely that he's holding AA or AK since he didn't 3-bet pre-flop.
Posted by BorinLoner

So what range do you put them on having made such a huge overbet?

Might just be a player who knows on lower levels you get called more often so thinks why not shove with A3,A2 or trips and hope for a call from Ax. Perhaps they had seen "hero" call down in earlier pots with just top pair and thought they would go for it with TP/TK.

If the notes are "seems to bet out hands" also implies they had something.

Totally agree you would like specific notes on what sort of hand and flop they shove all in post flop with.

If it its a stone cold bluff why risk the buy-in to win 4 bigs?

Lambert180

It won't be a stone cold bluff, it'll often be a marginal hand that they're not really sure how to play so the 'easiest' thing to do is just take the tough decisions out of the hand, shove, hope to get called by worse or just win it now.

Not saying that's correct thinking, but it is often how some people do think.

I call.

IDONKCALLU

u would be a nit to fold this

IDONKCALLU

if he had 2 pair im sure he would never shove like this he go to value town on all streets with this shove looks like a marginal hand rather then masssive

unknown_username

Its an easy call at NL4. Unlucky.

@ phantom, at this level they often have weaker Ax hands and other pocket pairs and stone cold 'call that!!' bluffs. I would say that A,Q is good more often than not here over time playing this level. I cant explain why they do this as I don't know but all I can say is that it is pretty amazing what they turn up with a decent amount of the time. I learnt how to play poker at this level and also built a healthy bankroll there.

FWIW I am happy getting it in pre with A,Q too.

Phantom66

@DrSharp Thanks the consensus definitely seems to be standard call at that level.

Still cant get my head around massive overbets like that with so little in the pot.

I guess I need to find out for myself - never been a reg NL cash player - just dabbled but the adjustments and higher variance stopped me carrying on in the past when I was winning on other games.

Tempted by Tikays thread to give it another whirl.