Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?

LARSON7

Opponent is mostly an MTT player on sky and plays a bit of cash. Does pretty well at MTT's no idea about cash, but is definatly capable of making moves.

I just call the 3 bet with AK in position. Flop doesn't look like it's really hut opponents range. I decide to raise it.

On the turn I hit my jin card. It's checked to me, i decide to check for pot control.

Probably a mistake, i am good here against most of opponents range. The other reason i checked the turn, was to allow opponent to bluff the river, and snap call. Bit of both really.

When it's checked to me, i'm value betting all day long. When i'm shoved on, it looks like a really easy call. He's never checking a 6 there, and would be really unlikely he had a 6 given pre flop action/ action through out the hand. Could be a set of 7s, but again i doubt your shoving with 10s there.

How would you play this hand/ would you call the river shove?

x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.95
longman912	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£19.50
	Your hole cards	K A
rancid	Fold
liamboi11	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£45.33
x	Fold
x	Raise		£0.85	£1.30	£19.10
longman912	Fold
LARSON7	Call		£0.60	£1.90	£44.73
Flop
		8 9 5
x	Bet		£1.00	£2.90	£18.10
LARSON7	Raise		£2.95	£5.85	£41.78
x	Call		£1.95	£7.80	£16.15
Turn
		A
x	Check
LARSON7	Check
River
		7
x	Check
LARSON7	Bet		£3.90	£11.70	£37.88
x	All-in		£16.15	£27.85	£0.00
LARSON7	?

hhyftrftdr

Passive pre flop, then suddenly take off on a 9 high board. Difficult to see what your repping on that flop. Unless we have enough history with villain to know he'll check/jam river with AQ or similar then I think it's a fold. Why can't villain have a 6? Villains range is potentially quite wide due to a lack of a 4bet pre.

''Flop doesn't look like it's really hit opponents range. I decide to raise it''. I'm not sure about this logic. If we think he's whiffed this flop, then AK high could easy be the best hand at the moment. Plus we have position and back door spades to go with our over cards. So surely this makes calling a better line? But it comes back to a lack of a 4bet p/f, which failed to narrow our oppo's range and thus he could have smashed this flop, we really don't know.

GELDY

you take control on the flop but let go on the turn even though you hit!

bet the turn, and if he has the gutshot he should let go.

if he is still there on the river then c/c as 2 prs and straight beat you

LnarinOO

seems a very mixed up line to be taking to be honest larson- lets break the handown as much as possible-

pre flop is fine to balance and protect your range.. id still prefer building a 4bet range to defend agaisnt villans 3bet tendancies.. however as we now flat it makes villan play more honest with us as we also have and uncapped callin range-  

its funny u say that the flop doesnt hit our villans 3bet range and as u say he/she is an MTT player - from experience id say that it does smash part of their 3bet range- MTT players as we know always play alot shallower so therfore 'normally' have a polarised 3bet range- and the bluff part of this range is generally SC's- this is because they still need to 3bet a certain amount to remain balanced and when there not getting called theres no points having a stronger range--- drifting off but my point being vs an MTT player that may not have adjusted their ranges for the 'occasional' cash game this flop is far from 'missing them' completley...

having said all this i dislike the raise - we're tryin to rep such a narrow value range so would expect to be called alot - not understanding why we then check the turn especially after reppin this range on the flop? to me it turns ur hand pretty face up.. id expect u to have exactly an ace once u raise flop then check turn- none of your sets or staights or bluffs would have checked this after raising the flop, try and be more consistant with ur lines-

on the river as played i do not see much value in a bet- it gets us in to unnecessary spot when he c/r.. to be honest its a good spot for villan as ur hand is pretty face up- villan should know u dont have much and should fold a one pair hand to a jam whether he has a straight or turning a hand like 10's into a bluff

Jac35

FPS Henrik

Don't mind flat pre but deep enough to reraise
Raise when we miss flop but just check back when we hit?
If you now think you're ahead on turn why do you want to keep the pot small for pot control? Where was the pot control on flop?

Don't understand any of your logic on this one.
As played I fold river as I have absolutely no idea what my opponent has

rancid

call flop
bet turn
b/f river

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

seems a very mixed up line to be taking to be honest larson- lets break the handown as much as possible- pre flop is fine to balance and protect your range.. id still prefer building a 4bet range to defend agaisnt villans 3bet tendancies.. however as we now flat it makes villan play more honest with us as we also have and uncapped callin range-   its funny u say that the flop doesnt hit our villans 3bet range and as u say he/she is an MTT player - from experience id say that it does smash part of their 3bet range- MTT players as we know always play alot shallower so therfore 'normally' have a polarised 3bet range- and the bluff part of this range is generally SC's- this is because they still need to 3bet a certain amount to remain balanced and when there not getting called theres no points having a stronger range--- drifting off but my point being vs an MTT player that may not have adjusted their ranges for the 'occasional' cash game this flop is far from 'missing them' completley... having said all this i dislike the raise - we're tryin to rep such a narrow value range so would expect to be called alot - not understanding why we then check the turn especially after reppin this range on the flop? to me it turns ur hand pretty face up.. id expect u to have exactly an ace once u raise flop then check turn- none of your sets or staights would have checked this after raising the flop, try and be more consistant with ur lines- on the river as played i do not see much value in a bet- it gets us in to unessary spot when he c/r.. to be honest its a good spot for villan as ur hand is pretty face up- villan should know u dont have much and should fold a one pair hand to a jam whether he has a straight or turning a hand like 10's into a bluff
Posted by LnarinOO

Harry, so often it is just a continuation bet by opponent. I don't really like calling, what do you do when you miss the the turn and opponent barrels again, meekly fold? I quite like the raise, i could be wrong tho a lot of the time it wins the pot there and then.

Thanks for the post Lnarin!

The line is a bit mixed up, as Geldy said, i should have bet the turn. I hardly ever check the turn there, i was just mixing it up.

100% any set/ straight is getting bet there. I would say as well most aces are getting bet there too, after the flop action, it's going to be hard for opponent to put me on an ace?? Maybe AJ might check back there.

If opponent had set/ straight/ even 2 pair OOP are they really likely to be flat calling my flop bet OOP? With 2 pair probably, but i doubt it for a set / straight. If they had either of these, i'm most likely getting 4 bet on the flop. They could check raise turn hoping for a bet, but lose out on so much value by doing this. If opponent had  a set or a straight i think i would have known about it on the flop.

Is it really obvious i have an ace there? I would expect most people to continue betting there once they had hut their card, i certainly usually always would.

Given the action during the hand, i know it's played back to front, but opponent lines makes no sense if he has a straight or a set, and 2 pair if anything (most times) is just calling. A set or straight would put in a value bet, the check over bet jam is either crushing me or a total bluff.

I just thought any value hand would not check jam, just looked like an attempt to steal the pot.

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out? : Harry, so often it is just a continuation bet by opponent. I don't really like calling, what do you do when you miss the the turn and opponent barrels again, meekly fold? I quite like the raise, i could be wrong tho a lot of the time it wins the pot there and then. Thanks for the post Lnarin! The line is a bit mixed up, as Geldy said, i should have bet the turn. I hardly ever check the turn there, i was just mixing it up. 100% any set/ straight is getting bet there. I would say as well most aces are getting bet there too, after the flop action, it's going to be hard for opponent to put me on an ace?? Maybe AJ might check back there. If opponent had set/ straight/ even 2 pair OOP are they really likely to be flat calling my flop bet OOP? With 2 pair probably, but i doubt it for a set / straight. If they had either of these, i'm most likely getting 4 bet on the flop. They could check raise turn hoping for a bet, but lose out on so much value by doing this. If opponent had  a set or a straight i think i would have known about it on the flop. Is it really obvious i have an ace there? I would expect most people to continue betting there once they had hut their card, i certainly usually always would. Given the action during the hand, i know it's played back to front, but opponent lines makes no sense if he has a straight or a set, and 2 pair if anything (most times) is just calling. A set or straight would put in a value bet, the check over bet jam is either crushing me or a total bluff. I just thought any value hand would not check jam, just looked like an attempt to steal the pot.
Posted by LARSON7

in relative hand strength terms i doesnt make any sense for anythin apart from and ace to take this line, granted i proba;;y wouldn't give u a hand a strong as AK as i would have thought tjis 4bet pre but, if u think what other hands u raise flop with?? sets carry on bettin , straights carry on betting, blufss carry on bluffin reppin the ace.. to me it looks liek exactly what u have u no longer feel the need to carry on ur bluff so incorreclty change your whole game plan and take a more pot control line in a 3bet pot- everyone plays more honest in 3 bet pots..believe me..! 

im not givin villan much credit either but ur range looks to weak also ..

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

FPS Henrik Don't mind flat pre but deep enough to reraise Raise when we miss flop but just check back when we hit? If you now think you're ahead on turn why do you want to keep the pot small for pot control? Where was the pot control on flop? Don't understand any of your logic on this one. As played I fold river as I have absolutely no idea what my opponent has
Posted by Jac35

Thank's everyone.

I know the logic is upside down!  Made a few mistakes and didn't play it that well at all.

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out? : Thank's everyone. I know the logic is upside down!  Made a few mistakes and didn't play it that well at all.
Posted by LARSON7

at least ur tryin to mix it up and learn.. the only way to become better imo

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out? : in relative hand strength terms i doesnt make any sense for anythin apart from and ace to take this line, granted i proba;;y wouldn't give u a hand a strong as AK as i would have thought tjis 4bet pre but, if u think what other hands u raise flop with?? sets carry on bettin , straights carry on betting, blufss carry on bluffin reppin the ace.. to me it looks liek exactly what u have u no longer feel the need to carry on ur bluff so incorreclty change your whole game plan and take a more pot control line in a 3bet pot- everyone plays more honest in 3 bet pots..believe me..!  im not givin villan much credit either but ur range looks to weak also ..
Posted by LnarinOO

lol thanks for your responses always really interesting reading your views, you really do know your stuff!

That makes perfect sense now as to why you would put me on an ace as played. You know poker stuff at a different level, hence why you play the stakes you do and win. Always good to read your posts in the clinic.

And looking forward to your diary!

hhyftrftdr

The hand looks a little all over the place but I'm unlikely to be raising that flop (as played). More than happy to float with quite possibly the best hand (bearing in mind how under repped we are). The flop and turn action makes no sense to me. You've taken such a bizarre line that I might level myself into calling the river.

LARSON7

I did call, Opponent had JQ

I couldn't see him checking 10J or 6x on the river, cause there is no way i could value bet anything on that board! And he wouldn't let me check check for cheap show down (if he had 10J or 6x).

Jac35

In Response to Re: Thoughts on Checking the Turn /Hand run out?:

I did call, Opponent had JQ I couldn't see him checking 10J or 6x on the river, cause there is no way i could value bet anything on that board! And he wouldn't let me check check for cheap show down (if he had 10J or 6x).
Posted by LARSON7

On reflection

Think you played it really well to get the max

LARSON7

lol i know total genius

In my famous words from Saturday he either had me or didn't!