30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?

Lambert180

What do you think of my line on the flop?

Obv the only clubs I'm liking are the 2 and 7 so haven't really got flush outs. Fairly likely I can still have the best hand at this stage with redraws via 7s and 2s if I am behind.

I'm a decent favourite against any OP except 88 (whiich I'm flipping with) unless their OP includes a club then I'm not so good.

Meh, think while writing it I've already decided flatting was good lol. Likely still have the best hand so no need to bluff, and unlikely to be in good shape V someone who wants to get it in on this flop

Feel free to disagree or comment on later streets.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
omgffsgfy	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£26.58
Cooms_1959	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£34.87
	Your hole cards	5 5
makapaka	Raise		£0.90	£1.35	£40.09
rtc	Call		£0.90	£2.25	£19.98
Lambert180	Call		£0.90	£3.15	£27.57
Popeye747	Fold
omgffsgfy	Call		£0.75	£3.90	£25.83
Cooms_1959	Call		£0.60	£4.50	£34.27
Flop
		6 3 4
omgffsgfy	Bet		£1.50	£6.00	£24.33
Cooms_1959	Fold
makapaka	Call		£1.50	£7.50	£38.59
rtc	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£1.50	£9.00	£26.07
Turn
		9
omgffsgfy	Bet		£1.80	£10.80	£22.53
makapaka	Call		£1.80	£12.60	£36.79
Lambert180	Call		£1.80	£14.40	£24.27
River
		7
omgffsgfy	Bet		£2.10	£16.50	£20.43
makapaka	Call		£2.10	£18.60	£34.69
Lambert180	Call		£2.10	£20.70	£22.17

rancid

3 bet pre
raise river

LnarinOO

dont 3bet pre 

raise river

GELDY

why 3bet pre?

b/f river

IDONKCALLU

y would u 3 bet pre ya turning a set mining hand into a bluff id call but raise river for value 

bbMike

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

y would u 3 bet pre ya turning a set mining hand into a bluff id call but raise river for value 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I'm not very experienced in cash, but is this right?

I'd have thought a 3-bet pre would have more chance getting you heads up in position and being able to rep a number of hands. Also, then if you do manage to hit the set it's far easier to get the stacks in. Unless it's easier getting stacks in when more people are in the pot...?

Someone please expand on this. Ta.

F_Ivanovic

I raise every street given how small the bet sizing is.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

I raise every street given how small the bet sizing is.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

But what worse hands are gonna call and what better hands are gonna fold if I raise the flop or turn?

I'm open to the idea of playing it different, that's why I posted it cos I wasn't sure in-game.

FWIW, to everyone else, don't think there's much value in raising the river, very much doubt I'll get calls from worse... one of the opponents will 100% snap fold everything worse (including sets) imo, not definite on the other.

liamboi11

flat pre when you have hands like 55 you want multiple opponents and hope to get right flop to stack 1 or more players.

I think you have played the hand fine until river, I think personally I raise river

rancid

well you can just flat pre and look to hit set, and fold a lot on flop - essentially just nut peddle all day if ya want  - pretty standard- like 99% would probably play it this way.

or depending on what you think about opening range you could 3 bet and take it down or go to the flop HU with the implication that you can rep certain flops and you still may hit a set. You can still get better hands to fold pre/flop.
Probably a bit spewy doing this a lot but the option is worth considering in certain spots.

many ways to skin that cat



river - we could just play it safe and flat - if we raise we pretty much have to raise fold.
You ask what hands will call, lots of hands like sets/2pr will call obviously
the way it's played it's an easy raise, your saying they have not got much because you think they will not call - for that reason alone you should raise. You want people making mistakes by calling when they should not ! Surely that's how you make money at poker If they fold they fold, so what. Like nice sizing on turn/river - if they have a better hand than you it's like really wtf!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

well you can just flat pre and look to hit set, and fold a lot on flop - essentially just nut peddle all day if ya want  - pretty standard- like 99% would probably play it this way. or depending on what you think about opening range you could 3 bet and take it down or go to the flop HU with the implication that you can rep certain flops and you still may hit a set. You can still get better hands to fold pre/flop. Probably a bit spewy doing this a lot but the option is worth considering in certain spots. many ways to skin that cat river - we could just play it safe and flat - if we raise we pretty much have to raise fold. You ask what hands will call, lots of hands like sets/2pr will call obviously the way it's played it's an easy raise, your saying they have not got much because you think they will not call - for that reason alone you should raise. You want people making mistakes by calling when they should not ! Surely that's how you make money at poker If they fold they fold, so what. Like nice sizing on turn/river - if they have a better hand than you it's like really wtf!
Posted by rancid

Lol, one of them had 8T for a higher straight

huuuuume

looking at the hand in a vacuum without reads I don't see what worse hands will call you on the river.  also, there is a chance against some nl30 villains that we get pushed off a split

with the bet sizing, action, and position I would rather raise flop or turn than the river especially if you say one of the villains is capable of folding big hands according to your reads

rancid

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive? : Lol, one of them had 8T for a higher straight
Posted by Lambert180

what ya gonna do except laugh, i bet you raise and he just flats.

maybe lets just rep nuts all day and get folds

paranoia of the best hand is always lols, is paranoia a good reason not to bet/raise

idk all seems a bit nitty doesn't


I am sure over a large sample they call with worse a lot more than turn up with nut str

at least maybe you have reads on vill sizing

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive? : But what worse hands are gonna call and what better hands are gonna fold if I raise the flop or turn? I'm open to the idea of playing it different, that's why I posted it cos I wasn't sure in-game. FWIW, to everyone else, don't think there's much value in raising the river, very much doubt I'll get calls from worse... one of the opponents will 100% snap fold everything worse (including sets) imo, not definite on the other.
Posted by Lambert180

Well for a start we wouldn't be giving 8T an oppertunity to get to the river if we raise flop!! By raising we can charge higher flush draws (that don't have a pair) and we also make it hard for any hand w/o a flush draw to continue (such as all overpairs w/no FD)

By raising we also take the initiave in the hand and although we may be raising for value/protection now (our hand has good equity vs most hands) we can decide to turn it into a bluff later on if we believe our hand isn't good by the river.

rancid

think raising flop is deffo an option, espcially since they gonna carry a lot of equity to the turn
would be a good idea if we can fold out hands that have good equity against us

maybe we should ask ourselfs if we do raise, would they actually fold
what range are we looking to fold out

if they call, a lot of the deck we don't like on the turn - leaves us not a lot to barrel turn on

i guess ivan your r/f flop, the folding part i don't like

Lambert180

Well that's the other issue... I think if we raise flop it can only be a raise/fold cos we'll be crushed if we get it in.

Which is why I'm not sure about raising cos it's putting us in a spot where we'll be forced to fold and not realise our equity

rancid

well we basically got a OESD with extensions to the nutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

if someone flopped it then ok we very thin

if ya going to raise this spot on flop your going to have to be very confident that these two are not going to come over the top with hands like pr + fd or over cards with fd - and even sets/2prs

obviously puts you in a spot where they gonna flat with the flopped dangles and also the same hands with equity that you want them to fold

also you need to think about if you do raise, does this look nutted or does it look like a semi bluff and how will them two react

then look forward to the turn and what cards can we rep, can we rep these - will they not exist in villians range too much


if ya can't see how you gonna continue in the hand and make it profitbale than I wouldn't even bother thinking about raising

wy do we raise with semi bluffs ? cause raising flop is essentially what ya doing - so you wanna see a lot folds and imo I don't think we get enough and it makes turn such a headache and this could just end up on the spew pile

IDONKCALLU

on here easy to say raise preflop in position  and likely to go heads up   on flop goes check u bet they fold but this is having 5 mins to think about it 

not 15 second time bar almost every 1 like rancid has said in game every 1 calls here 

only after we can say raise pre this is when we have longer to think about the hand 

DOHHHHHHH

Much prefer flatting v utg 135xbb effective.

His range is stronger = easier to get value post when we make a set etc.

If we were sb v agro cutoff open and peel then more tempted to 3b.

r/f river smallish.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: 30NL - Flopped Open Ended Straight Flush Draw - Too Passive?:

Well that's the other issue... I think if we raise flop it can only be a raise/fold cos we'll be crushed if we get it in. Which is why I'm not sure about raising cos it's putting us in a spot where we'll be forced to fold and not realise our equity
Posted by Lambert180

OK if we raise/fold it's because we believe villains range is heavily weighted towards a flush since against all other hands we have more than enough equity to call. (against a set for example it's a flip)

And if villain has a flush already then we don't need to worry about not realising our equity anyway since our equity is only 11% and if we hit a straight OTT we're in a RIO situation where we're just going to lose more money.

Basically this is a spot where realising our equity is not crucial since our hand has poor visibility - a lot of turns may give us the best hand but we won't know whether or not we do have the best hand. 

If we had the Ac here then flatting the flop becomes by far better because we know exactly where we stand on future cards.

rancid

yh ivan versus set/2 pr they canny have a club

be intested to look at equity share verus all that comes over the top

also same same spot when they just flat


what ya doing on turn when they flat