You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!
What to do??
I have been playing on villains table for a good while. He is very aggressive... especially on his BB. I've seen him 3 bet light from his BB into multiple opponents on a number of occassions... this includes marginal hands like A10 but also worse hands like 108 and 89s. This is why I 4 bet as I think I get a fold a lot of the time from his junk hands and I can gain more info. His flat makes me rule out AA and KK as I dont see an aggressive player like him slowing down at any point with either hand. So his range is still relatively undefined at this moment as a lot of suited connectors and PP are probably in his range here when he flats.
The flop comes Q high and he jams on my bet. Question is do I call considering his range or is the bet just too big and I should just look for a better spot? I have a blocker to the nut flush but can easily see him holding a KJh type hand.
The flop comes Q high and he jams on my bet. Question is do I call considering his range or is the bet just too big and I should just look for a better spot? I have a blocker to the nut flush but can easily see him holding a KJh type hand.
| watto84 | Small blind | £0.25 | £0.25 | £21.38 | |
| X | Big blind | £0.50 | £0.75 | £171.80 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| b123n | Fold | ||||
| gazza127 | Raise | £1.50 | £2.25 | £320.90 | |
| katiegir16 | Fold | ||||
| HachiKuro | Fold | ||||
| watto84 | Call | £1.25 | £3.50 | £20.13 | |
| X | Raise | £5.50 | £9.00 | £166.30 | |
| gazza127 | Raise | £13.50 | £22.50 | £307.40 | |
| watto84 | Fold | ||||
| X | Call | £9.00 | £31.50 | £157.30 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| X | Check | ||||
| gazza127 | Bet | £15.75 | £47.25 | £291.65 | |
| X | All-in | £157.30 | £204.55 | £0.00 | |
| gazza127 | ?? | ||||
Comments
I don't see him jamming Kings, doubt he has aces. He's not jamming a set (you wouldn't think)
Definatly looks like a flush draw. Guess you called and he hut.
I think it's a call.
do you know what vill flats a 4 bet with
your only beating a fd
easy fold really
your gonna see 7's,5's QQ/KK/AA so much of the time it will make you sick
I decided after tanking my whole time bar to call. I was close to folding but I just couldnt work out what hand he'd have that was beating me... and why he would do this with a hand that hand me crushed? I couldnt put him on AA or KK. I had a blocker to QQ... and i dont see why he'd overshove a set where he gets 0 value from hands which arent made/missed. I convinced myself he was on a draw and called at the last second....
.... i wish i had timed out.
Only up against the nuts. 96% underdog on the flop and I called it off. Its irritating when you play for 3 hours and build up a big stack and go and lose it all in one hand. I just wanted to know if anyone else calls here or if it just wasnt worth it for the price?
Anytime i've seen this type of move it's always a flush draw.
The reason i said that was why would some one shove a set/ 2 pair? I think it looks pretty terrible as they are missing out on so much value (if you fold). I could be totally wrong here?
Maybe it is a really good player and he had your hand nailed, AQ, KK AA. Maybe he's simply putting you on the latter. I know we can't judge it on how we would play it, but i really don't understand the shove here, it doesn't make any sense to me. There is maybe about 4/5/6 hands you can call with (including 2 sets), versus the countless other hands you are forced to fold inclding hands like AK.
The only reason i can think of he has you on aces or kings and does not think you will fold these. But in saying that a lot of the time Aces and Kings will fold.
Is there any argument that this is good play by villian? Or am i way of the mark in saying his shove is pretty bad? (despite the fact he got the call in this occasion)
Is my 4 bet size too small? I've made it £15 to go after he 3 bet to £6. There's no way he's calling his enitre 3 bet range... especially out of position. I have the stack to put pressure on him as well as position and im the one that can stick him in a few tricky spots. Imagine if he had JJ instead on this board. Does he call a flop bet in case I have AK? What if he too has AQ... does he call 3 streets out of position after a 4 bet pre? Im the one that can really give him a headache, however he has taken the most aggressive line possible and has put me to a decision on the flop. The lad didnt want to play any poker post flop out of position.
I don't think i said I don't know what to do v his range - I just said his range is still relatively undefined. A lot of the time I take the pot v this villain by continuation betting this flop, rather than flatting the 3 bet pre and having to fold to any bet on the flop if I miss regardless of opponents cards. Of course theres a plan post flop if I get called - the 4 bet isnt solely to get him to fold.
FWIW, If he's being aggro then you can just flat IP and play some poker. If he's really aggro then you don't wanna just 4bet and make him fold a ton of his air hands. You have position and a hand that is gonna be crushing a rreally aggro players 3bet range, you don't have to just check/fold missed flops.
by the sounds of it you want vill to flat 100% of his 3 bet range cause he will - therefore make it bigger
you are deep enough for vill to call with the sizing, so when vill does flat it's a pretty wide range
you gotta ask yourself if you can 100% rule out QQ/KK/AA
therefore to just put just FD's in vill range is a massive mistake because as you say range is undefined
I mean you say he not calling 100% of 3 bet range, so how can you put vill so easily on fd ?
Plus you hold ace of hearts, massive blocker to vill 3 bet range.
Which means im really worried about 3 hands. QQ - I hold a blocker, 77 and 55. He holds a lot more hands in his range which includes the flush draw. 910s, J10s, K10s, KJs as well as other hands like 89s or possibly even 86. Maybe he even has a pair + flush draw such as 78s or 67s. He also has a Qx range too such as another AQ hand if he thinks I can't call a big bet with just an overpair or AK. Im not saying he never has he beat here (obviously he does sometimes) however the action/history and range of the opponent IMO leans towards a call.
And I know lambert I could float on a 10 high flop with AQ in position but if oppo barrels twice then what? When I say villain has been 3 betting his BB.... I mean he has done it almost every orbit. I've got to 4 bet pre to try to narrow his range surely? to also a lot of the time continuation bet and win the hand on the flop uncontested.
I understand but I dont think im turning my hand into a bluff as oppo will call worse. If he makes it £37 then I have to fold preflop - its that simple. Oppo is aggressive but when push comes to shove he's never going to 5 bet worse than AQ especially as 4 bets have been relatively rare on our table.
Well considering he had 3 bet his bb so often and has bet out on every flop and 90% of the time has gotten folds its quite obvious he doesnt like playing out of position unless he is the aggressor.
I had played him earlier in the day and he had just called in his BB almost every orbit. I watched him call down with bottom pair on 3 streets v me thinking I had a draw and he lost a fair bit of money in about an hour. When he came back a few hours later he had changed his game entirely to being a lot more aggressive when he's not in position to take down pots uncontested. Maybe its best to just call IP but if I do this with all of my hands and miss flops... post flop play against an aggressive player is just a nono and its money down the drain.
Its funny. I posted a hand similar to this (but with more post flop play) where I just flatted in position with KJs after the BB 3 bet. I had said that oppo had done this very often and I got a couple of replies telling me to 4 bet pre. Im confused as to what to do now.... mixed responses galore.
Either way I was looking for a simple call/fold answer from someone on the flop... I didn't really think the 4 bet pre was a big deal!
As said.... why would someone shove a set here when they get 0 value from unmade hands?
In Response to Re: What to do??: If your perceived range is AA or KK and he doesn't think you can lay it down on the flop, then he's absolutely right to shove here. I don't agree with LNarin00 saying it's a bad shove from oppo if that's what he thinks of you...
In fact, if that's what he thinks of you it would be bad to do anything but shove the flop.
I obviously don't know what villain thinks of you, but this seems like a very plausible explanation.
All we need to think post-flop if we call his 3-bet is "Do I beat the range he's betting here?"
Then, if we call the flop we ask the same question again on the turn..
We just make the most +EV decision against the villain's range. If that means calling down with AQ high, then it means calling down with AQ high.
As played... meh... On the flop, I think it's your perceived range that's important. If you know he thinks your pre-flop 4-bet range is very narrow, and he still wants to get it in on the flop, you should be worried. He's not going to semi-bluff draws against hands he doesn't think you can fold. He doesn't seem like he's afraid of getting it in..
I think your perceived 4-bet range has to be pretty wide to give him credit for a semi-bluff here. If you're saying that he's been 3-betting lots and nobody has been 4-betting him, it looks like a fold on the flop... unless he's a complete nutter. You don't seem to know that he's a nutter, though..
We are not comparing oranges with oranges.
And just shows, just because you (I) would think that no one would ever open shove a set on the flop, for 200 plus big blinds because that is a bad play (imo), losing out on value, does not mean they would not.
I suppose that is a weakness of mines, as well as thinking what they are playing with, i rule things out based on the fact i would percieve it as "bad play".
I suppose sometimes it's best not to think that "oh thats bad play he's never got a set there or AA/ KK" and purely base it on the bet. Which is a big tell. Certainly readless.
Say for example, bythe same logic, we had AA here and to a lesser extent KK, we are folding these too?
I think we need too, it doesn't make sense the shove, but it's shouting loud and clear i have a monster.
Going back to this original hand, circa 100 big blinds deep i think i would call most times here (is that a mistake?)
The difference with this hand is that both players are so deep.
I know that's a mistake the amount of blinds should make no difference really. But if both players had only 100bbs, would you still say this a fold?
Hopefully you recieved it!
Likewise some people raise the flop and you know you can just 3b ship sets, others you have to call and let them barrel off cos a 3b shove on the flop would make them fold overpairs.
I dunno if the villian thought this deeply about it or not, and if he did I expect it's much more likely he's expecting you to snap with AA/KK not AQ.
RE: flatting. yes we can float on a T high flop, but doesn't have to be that kinda flop to float, there's also loads of boards we can just call for value, we can also obv hit, and .... we can just fold, we don't have to win every hand