20NL - Spew Call?

Lambert180

Is there any range I can be up against where this isn't bad?

Basically getting 2:1 on my money so need to have 33% ish, right? I don't think he'd flat my flop raise with sets cos of how wet the board is, so can rule out sets/boats on the turn a lot of the time.

Urgh this is spew, flame away.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
billytheki	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£18.87
Lambert180	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£19.80
	Your hole cards	8 J
tatohead	Fold
conorccfc	Fold
titch655	Fold
Oban	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£18.57
billytheki	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£0.40	£1.30	£19.40
Flop
		4 6 7
Lambert180	Check
Oban	Bet		£0.98	£2.28	£17.59
Lambert180	Raise		£2.40	£4.68	£17.00
Oban	Call		£1.42	£6.10	£16.17
Turn
		6
Lambert180	Bet		£3.10	£9.20	£13.90
Oban	All-in		£16.17	£25.37	£0.00
Lambert180	Call		£13.07	£38.44	£0.83

BorinLoner

Yeah, it looks not great.

We need 34% equity and, even if we have 15 live outs, we don't get that. We'd need our Jacks to be live as well or to have the best hand some of the time, I think. Both seem unlikely and we may be dead vs two-pair that turned a house or what you think is the unlikely set. Of course he could have your flush or straight draws dead, too.

Looks like a fold.


Reasoning behind flatting pre-flop being better than folding or 3-betting?

F_Ivanovic

Bet turn bigger so we can justify havig the right equity to call when villain shoves AI

But joking aside I think if I bet turn I'd make it 2/3 pot to leave a smaller sizing for a river shove. I might consider c/r turn as well but betting is probably better.

I can answer borin's

Reasoning behind flatting pre-flop being better than folding or 3-betting

and it's because we're capable and willing to make moves post-flop. If we're flatting just to hit something then it's obviously a bad play but Lambert's identified that the flop probably hasn't hit the villains range and with a gutshot and a BDFD it's a nice hand to make a bluff raise OTF. That being said I probably make it slightly bigger due to the draw heavy nature of the board - if I had a value hand here or a strong draw I would be making it bigger so for a bluff hand we should be making it the same sizing unless ofc we don't think villain is going to pay attention to our bet sizing too much.

BorinLoner

Good point about it being a gut-shot draw, rather than an open-ender as I thought. We never have 15 live drawing outs then.


I could have answered my question too, F_Ivanovic. I was wondering what Lambert was thinking about it, though. lol

BorinLoner

Agree with check-raising bigger on the flop.

F_Ivanovic

Well I just assumed that was what he was thinking seeing as though that's what happened. If Lambert had called and then flopped a flush draw and c/called and then c/c turn too it would be a more valid question to ask because he hasn't shown in his post-flop play that he had a particular plan for the hand when flatting pre. But here, he's shown us a plan!

Lambert180

Yeah what Ivan said lol. I aint calling pre to just play fit/fold passive poker.

Result

I was lucky to be up against probably the best thing I could hope for... an airball lol... although I was behind at the time. He had AKo with no FD so all my outs were live and I hit one of them.

FWIW BL, my maths may be off but I think it's more than 15 outs that I got (obv I won't always have them all as live outs tho)....

9 x Clubs
3 x Jacks
3 x Eights
3 x Fives (cos one has been counted in the clubs)

18 outs. It will be 15 obv when he has 99/TT and even less against a lot of other hands. It was bad, but not the wooorst call in the world lol.

BorinLoner

Well, yeah. When you know your 8's and Jacks are live and none of your drawing outs are dead, you've got eighteen live outs. lol

rancid

In Response to Re: 20NL - Spew Call?:

Yeah what Ivan said lol. I aint calling pre to just play fit/fold passive poker. Result I was lucky to be up against probably the best thing I could hope for... an airball lol... although I was behind at the time. He had AKo with no FD so all my outs were live and I hit one of them. FWIW BL, my maths may be off but I think it's more than 15 outs that I got (obv I won't always have them all as live outs tho).... 9 x Clubs 3 x Jacks 3 x Eights 3 x Fives (cos one has been counted in the clubs) 18 outs. It will be 15 obv when he has 99/TT and even less against a lot of other hands. It was bad, but not the wooorst call in the world lol.
Posted by Lambert180

think this type of thinking quickly turns into spew

your just putting yourself in tough spots where you feel the need to play your way out of, feels good when it works - spew when it doesn't

essentially calling oop with J8s verus btn open ain't gonna yield a great return

don't really care about the rest

F_Ivanovic

Well it's dependant on how wide BTN opens ofc but J8s is a playable hand vs all but tight BTN openers. Folding it just feels way too nitty. But then again a lot of players at this level open too tight OTB so folding pre is probably fine. If you were HU though there's no way you'd fold J8s to a raise and BTN vs blinds should play very similar to HU.