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20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments

Lambert180Lambert180
edited September 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Thoughts?

10xBB pre probably isn't enough, should probably go more like 12xBB after the caller, especially 200xBB deep (300xBB deep v UTG).

After that, what dya think?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
geminirob Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £10.56
Lambert180 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £60.37
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • 10
     
Slipwater Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £71.03
Stewart1 Fold        
Jac35 Call   £0.60 £1.50 £38.30
70theo Fold        
geminirob Fold        
Lambert180 Raise   £1.80 £3.30 £58.57
Slipwater Call   £1.40 £4.70 £69.63
Jac35 Call   £1.40 £6.10 £36.90
Flop
   
  • 2
  • 6
  • 8
     
Lambert180 Bet   £3.30 £9.40 £55.27
Slipwater Call   £3.30 £12.70 £66.33
Jac35 Call   £3.30 £16.00 £33.60
Turn
   
  • 4
     
Lambert180 Bet   £7.05 £23.05 £48.22
Slipwater Call   £7.05 £30.10 £59.28
Jac35 Call   £7.05 £37.15 £26.55
River
   
  • 3
     
Lambert180 Bet   £20.00 £57.15 £28.22
           
           
           
           
           
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Comments

  • Jac35Jac35
    edited September 2013
    Cheers for posting that hand Paul.
    Cringing, not sure I could have played it worse. Only positive for me was that I was bad enough not to go broke here.

    For what it's worth, I think you had to give up on the river.
    After we both call turn, you're unlikely to get 2 folds here.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited September 2013
    Definitely 3bet bigger pre. As for river I'm not sure you can credibly rep a value hand here other than maybe something like 56hh. 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    or any 57s, also some sets, maybe A5hh
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  • gazza127gazza127
    edited September 2013
    Eurgh.  Sorry but even I give up on the river facing two opponents.  Especially when a card falls that we can't rep.  I mean how many times can we get given credit for holding a 5 in our hand after 3 betting pre?  If they've got overpairs and are calling the turn... they arent going to fold a low river.... even if the river brings the 4 card straight... at least thinking players shouldnt if they think they are ahead on the turn.  I wouldnt be surprised if one of them pops up with the straight themselves or a set either tbh.

    IMO this gets through so little of the time (especially on a relatively dry board from the flop) that we will lose more money than we make long term by hitting that bet button on the river.
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  • LARSON7LARSON7
    edited September 2013
    Just looks like burning money, like others have said, give up on the flop.

    River versus 2 players, it's so unlikely this is getting through.
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited September 2013
    lol

    ur trying to make them fold an overpair but its 20nl on sky gl with that

    also that turn and river is not really scary at all in a 3bet pot

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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited September 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments:
    lol ur trying to make them fold an overpair but its 20nl on sky gl with that also that turn and river is not really scary at all in a 3bet pot
    Posted by NColley

    Ok, so it's 100nl on full tilt does that actually change anything?
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited September 2013
    Yeah, I play 10 and 20nl and I'm pretty sure I know the fundamentals. I am always folding overpairs! :)

    However, I have the feeling this is one of my spewy hands!
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    Was very shocked by the result tbh, will post up in a bit.
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited September 2013
    I may be on 10s or JJ there, looking at it now. I think I called your river bet too...
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    Little bit stronger, Paul (Jac) folded and you called with QQ. To be honest, that was one of the hands I thought you could fold
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited September 2013
    It's difficult there, because I was raising pre-flop a lot, often fairly light, so for you to re-raise me didn't suddenly scream aces or kings. Sure, I figured you had strength, but on that board it is kind of hard to put down queens, wouldn't you say? I know you have bet every street, but you could do exactly the same with tens or jacks, and I certainly didn't have you on any combination of the cards on the board. I'm not sure I could get away from queens here. There's no flush and the only maybe obvious straight is 5 7, but I can't fold to such a specific hand. I don't know really...
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited September 2013
    Ok, what I would like to know (and im not critising, your far better than me and know these players better) but why are we 3 betting OOP with a weak A and an UTG raiser?
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner
    edited September 2013
    When the 4h hits on the turn, are we really thinking "WOW! What a great card for me to represent!" Probably not. What has it changed and what hands are we expecting two to fold?


    Agree with CraigSG1, on two things: Being OOP is going to be a pain in the neck and vs an UTG raiser is probably not the best situation to be bluffing. You've included no reads to suggest you know that this villain is opening UTG with any old junk, so why aren't we giving him a fairly tight range? We are bluffing with AT here, btw Craig, not treating AT as a value hand.... at least I hope that's what Lambert's thinking, lol.

    Lambert, when you say you think you're repping 57, 56 and some small pocket pairs on the river, you're basically saying you think that your opponents are giving you credit for a super-wide and de-polarised 3-bet range. It's fine to have a de-polarised 3-bet range - probably a good idea in deepstack cash - but if we know the villains are giving us credit for that, maybe we shouldn't be bluffing with air. Maybe we should be 3-betting a polarised range if we're going to be given credit for a de-polarised range.

    On the other hand you may just be being optimistic by the river that these villains are giving you those hands in your range. If you thought you were repping strong hands pre-flop, then you can't go changing your mind about what you're repping on the river... the villains won't.
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited September 2013
    To be fair to Lambert, I had probably been raising quite lightly that night, so he would have had good reason to suspect I was at it.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    They're not the only hands I can rep BL, I can obv just as easily have AA/KK.

    I just think villian (Slipwater) basically has to KNOW that I'm capable of 3barrelling airballs big alot this deep. I'm gonna have to slow down with a lot of value hands like if I've 3bet light with some 8x hand or what not. Ya might even expect me to slowdown with 99/TT... very few (if any) worse 1pr hands that I'm ever gonna bet for value here. So I think on the 3rd barrel here it's gonna be 100% value hands that beat him, AA/KK, sets, straights, random 2prs where I've 3bet light etc or the airball.

    Obviously it didn't work cos he called with QQ and I expected him to definitely fold 99/TT/JJ/QQ but twas the thought process. I dunno what notes Slip has on me, but I'd wanna know a player a bit before just assuming he can 3 barrel complete air on a dry board 300xBB deep so I expect a lot of folds.
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited September 2013
    betting (value or bluff) 99/TT/JJ on the river would be spew after gettin called twice by both already

    try not to run big bluffs without better reads imo especially with this weak a hand vs utg when your squeeze pre failed
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments:
    betting (value or bluff) 99/TT/JJ on the river would be spew after gettin called twice by both already try not to run big bluffs without better reads imo especially with this weak a hand vs utg when your squeeze pre failed
    Posted by NColley
    That's what I'm saying, so when I fire again on the river it's never a worse value hand, it's 100% hands that beat the villian or complete airballs and I don't think you should give unknowns (I'm pretty unknown to villian) much credit for having air in this spot.

    Fair point on the 2nd bit.
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  • liamboi11liamboi11
    edited September 2013
    slipwater always has 10s+ just don`t bluff him lol. and paul (jac35) will call me with any pair most times because he soul reads me all the time :) so I have cot down my bluffing vs him.

    serious though yeah defo 3bet bigger and flop is fine but when the 2players come along I think most time we have to give up on most turns tbh.

    but as played and you have fired the 2nd barrel and still got the 2 of them still hangin around prob best just to give up imo.
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited September 2013
    The thing is Lambert, I never had you on kings or aces - sorry. I just had a hunch that you were bluffing me because of my table image (or what I perceive is my table image). Maybe I was wrong, long term, but it was a situational call, based on a gut instinct.

    But yeah, maybe it is a bad series of calls by me.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    Nah don't apologise, you clearly owned me (with a little of me owning myself lol). Just cos I expected you to fold 99-QQ doesn't mean you will or you should.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited September 2013
    your praying for folds
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments:
    your praying for folds
    Posted by rancid
    Lol well I wasn't exactly expecting to get called by worse
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  • rancidrancid
    edited September 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments:
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 3 Barrel Bluffaments : Lol well I wasn't exactly expecting to get called by worse
    Posted by Lambert180

    well that fact that your on your hands and knees praying for folds suggests it's a very bad bluff and your going to get called a lot
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