20NL MC - 300xBB deep

Lambert180

My 3bet size was a misclick, I was gonna go £2.80 total, is that big enough?

After that, just interested on thoughts about my sizing?  And also, are we bet/folding the turn?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
gillian23	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£40.77
Lambert180	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£53.43
	Your hole cards	K K
mishmish	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£92.72
newstart12	Raise		£0.80	£1.30	£56.19
dubzs	Fold
gillian23	Call		£0.70	£2.00	£40.07
Lambert180	Raise		£2.00	£4.00	£51.43
mishmish	Call		£2.00	£6.00	£90.72
newstart12	Call		£1.40	£7.40	£54.79
gillian23	Call		£1.40	£8.80	£38.67
Flop
		2 10 9
gillian23	Check
Lambert180	Bet		£5.65	£14.45	£45.78
mishmish	Fold
newstart12	Call		£5.65	£20.10	£49.14
gillian23	Fold
Turn
		Q
Lambert180	Bet		£9.95	£30.05	£35.83

Slipwater

Once again, I should preface this with: I'm no expert, but...

£2.80 seems fine with a raise and call before you. Three callers though is slightly worrying, although you still have to expect to be ahead (obviously). Flop bet, I would maybe go a little higher as there are four of you seeing it, and it's a draw-heavy board.

The queen on the turn is certainly not one of our favourite cards as it does complete a likely straight holding, however with the pre-flop action I would suspect maybe he has pocket 10s, rather than something like KJ... not that it matters, because you're still behind either way. If he flats the turn, I would perhaps - depending on the card and bet size, obviously - check/call the river. I don't think I want to lead out there - you have one pair on a nasty board.

Hope that is of some use

F_Ivanovic

Absolutely hate these spots. I really have no idea about turn play here. I mean you'd expect newstart to be pretty strong when he flats flop here when you bet 4 way. I think I might just check almost my entire range OTT.

rancid

3+ pre


turn is a bet

Lambert180

Yeah I think turn is a bet too, just too many drawing hands and 1pr hands that will still pay me off. Do think it's a bet/fold like.

Dohhhh has put his turn bet at £12

I went basically £10

What do you think?

LnarinOO

i think id prefer betting the turn too, i personally like the sizing and yes b/fold - id hate to c/c this on turn a river and lose alot more vs a b/fold on turn

rancid

why u so concerned on little increments in sizing Still gonna price him in with draw ? same gravy...

may go 13/14

proba still a puke b/f

Lambert180

Alreet, cheers guys.

FWIW, he just folded the turn

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:

why u so concerned on little increments in sizing Still gonna price him in with draw ? same gravy... may go 13/14 proba still a puke b/f
Posted by rancid

This thinking is horrible and flawed.

When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep : This thinking is horrible and flawed. When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Did you watch the Stuart Rutter vid on poker vip? That's almost word for word!! 

---------------------

I said 12, coz that'd be my sizing if I was planning to shove the river.

Not much difference between 10 and 12 now, but 33 into 44 otr just looks/feels better than 35 into 40!

We don't rly wanna get c/jammed on by semi bluffs if we're planning to bet fold either, so a slightly larger sizing might make this option less appealing to AJdd etc.

F_Ivanovic

Can't recall who the video was by but yeah seems like that was the video! Guilty as charged :P

I'm sure he explained it a lot better than I tried too though! And yeah I agree 33 into 44 otr seems better. That being said, if we do bet turn, are we ever shoving river ourselves anyway? Just seems like villain is never going to call worse if we shove river. I'm also not sure how many worse hands he calls to a turn bet but by checking we can definitely induce bluffs from worse.

rancid

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep : This thinking is horrible and flawed. When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

thanks Ivan

A good point well made

The only problem i have with this is when we bet smaller we allow villian to call perfectly with draws.

Should we really be doing this, should we not adjust for texture

F_Ivanovic

Watch the video that Dohhhh was on about (can find it on youtube on iPokerVIP channel) - it depends on what you think villains range is. If it's only flush draws then yes you can bet bigger (basically you can go with as big a sizing as you think they'll call with) - I guess in this particular hand flush/straight draws might make up more of villains calling range then weaker made hands with little equity vs us though so I guess betting bigger for that reason might be good.

Do we actually think villain will call with any worse made hands or is villains calling range OTT just draws + hands that beat us?

rancid

In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:

Watch the video that Dohhhh was on about (can find it on youtube on iPokerVIP channel) - it depends on what you think villains range is. If it's only flush draws then yes you can bet bigger (basically you can go with as big a sizing as you think they'll call with) - I guess in this particular hand flush/straight draws might make up more of villains calling range then weaker made hands with little equity vs us though so I guess betting bigger for that reason might be good. Do we actually think villain will call with any worse made hands or is villains calling range OTT just draws + hands that beat us?
Posted by F_Ivanovic

yh I'll take a look if someone links it


well I am also thinking about our range - where we have bluffs and we don't want them calling wider - plus we want to leverage as much as possible for river shoves

If we look at range v range in this spot I do think bigger is better, espcially where we can have bluffs in our range.

Saying that it's mainly me going on something I heard a while back where you can have more bluffs in your range if you bet bigger - may have to re visit the maths behind that.


tis a naughty spot though