Turn overbet gets raised?!

F_Ivanovic

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cooooie	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£15.72
yddis	Sitout
X	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£32.43
	Your hole cards	J 9
dontazeme	Fold
F_Ivanovic	Raise		£0.90	£1.35	£36.16
Tracksuit	Fold
cooooie	Fold
X	Call		£0.60	£1.95	£31.83
Flop
		3 6 7
X	Check
F_Ivanovic	Bet		£1.46	£3.41	£34.70
X	Call		£1.46	£4.87	£30.37
Turn
		8
X	Check
F_Ivanovic	Bet		£5.80	£10.67	£28.90
X	Raise		£15.20	£25.87	£15.17
F_Ivanovic	Call		£9.40	£35.27	£19.50
River
		8
X	All-in		£15.17	£50.44	£0.00

So I get myself into another weird spot when I decide to overbet the turn. Board is so wet that I might decide to overbet here with my really strong hands so I decide to do it here with my huge draw. Raise is really confusing as I'd expect most of his strong hands to raise the flop. Am calling £9.40 to win £65 so only need 14.5% equity which I have vs anything. Although sometimes I call turn + hit river and still lose. Do I just shove turn or is there no fold equity? Or is calling fine?

Anyway, river brings a flush. But the board pairs and he shoves into me. Do I have to fold here or will I be right enough of the time?

Notes I have on villain "Called a turn overbet with A high. Doesn't value bet thinly but capable of bluffing. Raised 78J flop with 82 bet hp on X turn and check  river." So they seem pretty strange in general.

Slipwater

You're obviously a much better player than I am, but...

I'm not sure if I would be overly concerned that he has the house. Are you putting him on 87? I mean, it's a reasonable holding, sure, and he potentially would raise the turn with two pair in that spot, given - as you have said - how wet the board is.

But I think you're good here more often than you're not. I reckon he is more likely to have a straight draw (or possibly the made straight) on the turn.

AJ_Rockets

Do we really need to balance our turn over betting range at 30nl? Especially v an opponent who has shown he will call them light. Just keep it to value surely?

 

Not sure what i do on river. I suppose a lot of my decision making will be based on what you had shown up with last time you overbet turn v him and he called with ace high. If you did it with nutted hands then his raise is strong. If you showed down a semi bluff/bluff then it makes it an easier river call although we will be beat a lot.   

F_Ivanovic

I agree I don't think balancing is too important here but I still think with this particular hand it's fien to bomb the turn because of how strong our draw is. I mean I don't have a read yet to suggest villain is a huge calling station so I think betting turn has enough fold equity coupled with actual equity to be profitable.

Last time I overbet turn vs him and he called with A high I didn't have anything (and I just gave up river)

AJ_Rockets

Even opponents who don’t take much notice of their opponents tendencies will remember a turn over bet as they won’t face it often so people will recognise it more. The fact you turned up with a bluff last time, the added chance he will remember that you had a bluff and the fact he has shown he is capable of bluffing (in your notes) prob make it a call. I’m not too happy about it though and expect to get shown a better hand a fair amount. The fact he has a couple of value hands you beat and the possible bluffing combos make it a sigh call for me.

 

I’m still not the biggest fan of the turn over bet though. I like the line on some occasions but v this opponent and the history you have given i would just stick to over betting for value.

rancid

overbetting turn doesn't balance your range imo, would think it unbalances more than anything


call turn

call river

F_Ivanovic

Last time I overbet turn though it was a completely different board texture (much dryer irrc) - plus I doubt he remembers that hand unless he took a note as it wasn't in the same session.

What betsize would you use on the turn then? It seems a clear bet but the smaller we bet the more likely we are to get calls from weak hands. I'd much rather charge his weaker hands more so that we can get more value OTR if we hit/bluff them off if we don't hit.

LnarinOO

dont mind overbets at all but you have to carry on the aggression (otherwise your just wasting more money ususal the times your bluffing) - on the flip side when you have a value hand and overbettin you still want to be called so you have to give them a credible calling range you think will call (obviously dependant on reads)-

given the overbet on turn and his raise you now have no f/e but do have odds to make this call- ur not getting the odds u think (9.40 to win 65 ?? ) its a pretty sick river and expect to be behind most time so yea its a question of are we gonna win enough vs his range to make this correct ?? well we have to be correct 23% or basically 1 out of 4 times.. given reads and worse turn rasing value hands that u called u cannot fold river for this price..

F_Ivanovic

Agreed. I'm trying to incorporate them into my play but I often get confused about what to do after I've made an overbet (other than on the river ofc where usually an overbet is a shove) - This is mainly due to not really knowing how my opponents will react to an overbet and how their calling or raising range will change. The last time I overbet vs villain when the board was pretty dry I did so because I was pretty sure his range was really weak and I thought the best way to win the hand would be an overbet. When they called in that instance I was pretty sure that putting more money into the pot would be burning money. 

Yeah I agree river is a call (I did call btw) - will not post results yet but will say I was surprised to see what villain showed up with!

hhyftrftdr

4 5 clubs?

BigHawk89

We beat 9 10, 45 and some random bluffs (which seems unlikely).

Still hating this spot where we get raised when we overbet turn. Think you have too much equity to fold.

Still don't think we can fold river when we make our hand pots already too big.

F_Ivanovic

For those interested:

X	All-in		£15.17	£50.44	£0.00
F_Ivanovic	Call		£15.17	£65.61	£4.33
X	Show	J 8
F_Ivanovic	Show	J 9
F_Ivanovic	Win	Flush to the Jack	£63.81		£68.14

Thus I assume I had fold equity OTT?!

I needed 22.2% OTR and believed I may be good about 1/3 ott so pretty much forced to call. Shocked to see this was the hand I was up against!

LnarinOO

note worthy hand lol