Let's play this hand. What do I have?

DoubleAAA

This is why I love sky poker. £250 Gtd £11 Freezeout.
So guys, I have removed the river and hero's hole cards. Place yourself in villians shows holding 98o.1) You have 98o, early doors, so no reads on me, what are you putting me on and what are your actions for flop & turn?Hero stack on turn after betting is: 2045villian stack on turn after calling is: 975Hand History # (00:38 05/10/2013)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceDoubleAAASmall blind 25.0025.002470.00badtaste01Big blind 50.0075.003870.00 Your hole cards? ?
   BAGGPUSSFold    alpineCall 50.00125.002075.00cmorry67Fold    DoubleAAACall 25.00150.002445.00badtaste01Check    Flop  1029   DoubleAAACheck    badtaste01Bet 112.50262.503757.50alpineCall 112.50375.001962.50DoubleAAARaise 400.00775.002045.00badtaste01Fold    alpineCall 287.501062.501675.00Turn  5   DoubleAAABet 700.001762.501345.00alpineCall 700.002462.50975.00River                                          

F_Ivanovic

22, T9, QJhh, KJhh, 78hh.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

22, T9, QJhh, KJhh, 78hh.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

So when I check raise this flop in to 2 players are you still going to call with your 98o? If so, what do you do when I fire the 700 on the turn?

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : So when I check raise this flop in to 2 players are you still going to call with your 98o? If so, what do you do when I fire the 700 on the turn?
Posted by DoubleAAA

we already know villian calls?? and what he has? and what ur reppin? whats the question?

Lambert180

Imo, this is almost certainly 'look what I'm repping, and he still called down and was good (or got there)'.

The thing to realise is, some people don't think abuot or care about what you're repping. Some just think 'I've got 2nd pr and he might have a draw so I call'.

Focus on doing the right things yourself, it's the only bit of the game you have control over, you can't control what your opponent does.

DoubleAAA

Would you say my play is bad here with the nut flush draw? I'd also take this line some of the time with a set.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

Imo, this is almost certainly 'look what I'm repping, and he still called down and was good (or got there)'. The thing to realise is, some people don't think abuot or care about what you're repping. Some just think 'I've got 2nd pr and he might have a draw so I call'. Focus on doing the right things yourself, it's the only bit of the game you have control over, you can't control what your opponent does.
Posted by Lambert180

Wise words indeed. Something I have to keep reminding myself of.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

Would you say my play is bad here with the nut flush draw? I'd also take this line some of the time with a set.
Posted by DoubleAAA

The problem is because you just limped in pre you can only really represent 22 and T9 as value hands. Thus, the more semi-bluffs you add in your range, the more likely an opponent is going to peg you on a flush/straight draw because it's just so unlikely you have a made hand. 

And it depends, what was your non A card? See hands like 78hh and QJhh are more than fine to raise here because we are ahead of almost every made hand (equity wise) as we can win both with flush outs and straight outs. If we only have Ah6h here we can only win with a heart (and sometimes an ace)

Also when villain calls flop he's not folding on the blankest of turns so I'm not sure I like continuing OTT with this hand.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : The problem is because you just limped in pre you can only really represent 22 and T9 as value hands. Thus, the more semi-bluffs you add in your range, the more likely an opponent is going to peg you on a flush/straight draw because it's just so unlikely you have a made hand.  And it depends, what was your non A card? See hands like 78hh and QJhh are more than fine to raise here because we are ahead of almost every made hand (equity wise) as we can win both with flush outs and straight outs. If we only have Ah6h here we can only win with a heart (and sometimes an ace) Also when villain calls flop he's not folding on the blankest of turns so I'm not sure I like continuing OTT with this hand.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

But in this situation I can also have KTh, QTh, JTh as I would not always be raising these from the sb not to mention hands such as KTo, JTo which I could c/r the flop for the initial limper to cbet.  Why do you rule out me having these hands?

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : we already know villian calls?? and what he has? and what ur reppin? whats the question?
Posted by LnarinOO

If you bothered to read the OP you would see what my question is.  What would you be doing on the flop and turn if you were him?

gazza127

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : If you bothered to read the OP you would see what my question is.  What would you be doing on the flop and turn if you were him?
Posted by DoubleAAA

OK.  So you posted this hand cause you were called down light and presumably lost the hand.

But question what you can do better.

1) Dont limp.  Squeeze with a marginal hand if you want to play it.  Seeing too many pots, especially out of position is never going to work out AND when you dont have the initiative is even worse.  You cant rep a set here at any point.
2) If we are raising into a draw we need to know that villain is capable of folding a decent pair.  If he isnt then dont bother.  Or at least give up when i blank river comes.  But again because you haven't raised pre your range is percieved weak so people are more likely to stack off lighter.
3) Regardless of what villain had in this hand... what is he likely to have more often than not?  Whos to say he hasnt flopped top two?  Or the nut flush draw?  You have no idea what he has.  He could have any two cards.  Again raise pre to get an idea of the strength of his hand.

Dont go broke in a limped pot.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : OK.  So you posted this hand cause you were called down light and presumably lost the hand. But question what you can do better. 1) Dont limp.  Squeeze with a marginal hand if you want to play it.  Seeing too many pots, especially out of position is never going to work out AND when you dont have the initiative is even worse.  You cant rep a set here at any point. 2) If we are raising into a draw we need to know that villain is capable of folding a decent pair.  If he isnt then dont bother.  Or at least give up when i blank river comes.  But again because you haven't raised pre your range is percieved weak so people are more likely to stack off lighter. 3) Regardless of what villain had in this hand... what is he likely to have more often than not?  Whos to say he hasnt flopped top two?  Or the nut flush draw?  You have no idea what he has.  He could have any two cards.  Again raise pre to get an idea of the strength of his hand. Dont go broke in a limped pot.
Posted by gazza127

Although I agree with you that we have to raise to see where we are, the problem that I have found is that most of the time when I raise OOP, I'm almost always called.  Now I have to question, am I raising wanting a call or raising to take down the pot preflop?

Why do you say that I can never rep a set here?  I will check behind in the sb preflop with 22 here.  I will also check/raise T9 here on this flop and will of course have limped in with T9 preflop.  I take your point about not bothering to raise a draw if we know that our opponent will always call.  I know he had not flopped the nut flush darw because I had the nut flush draw.

gazza127

Lets just say... in a limped pot when someone has the option to bet first and doesnt take it, but finds a raise to someones bet. Smells of a draw to me all day long. Why would you check two pair or a set and risk it getting checked behind giving out a free turn? Youd definitely be piling in the money straight away.  You also havent raised pre. Thats why i wouldnt be putting you on top two sets. So that leaves bottom set and weird two pairs... but as I say.. if you had such a strong hand on quite a wet flop youd be piling the money in to charge for draws rather than check raising.

If we are not happy to raise pre because 'what happens if I get called'... then its simple. Dont play the hand. If you dont want to be put into an awkward spot dont put yourself there in the first place. 

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

Again raise pre to get an idea of the strength of his hand. Dont go broke in a limped pot.
Posted by gazza127

Not sure I agree with that point - I know it is a cause for debate though.

In my view that should never be a justification for a bet or a raise.

We raise to :

1. Remove opponents, thin the field or take a pot down
2. Get more value in the pot
3. Take the initiative in the betting

Your opponents response will give us some more information of course it will, but there needs to another primary reason to raise.

e.g. if we try and take a pot down with a marginal hand and the opponents call/reraise then we have more information but it's not why raised.

gazza127

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have? : Not sure I agree with that point - I know it is a cause for debate though. In my view that should never be a justification for a bet or a raise. We raise to : 1. Remove opponents, thin the field or take a pot down 2. Get more value in the pot 3. Take the initiative in the betting Your opponents response will give us some more information of course it will, but there needs to another primary reason to raise. e.g. if we try and take a pot down with a marginal hand and the opponents call/reraise then we have more information but it's not why raised.
Posted by Phantom66

Your first point was to 'thin the field'. Going by the fact that players are likely to fold weaker hands and continue with stronger ones... surely its exactly the same point.

Although my main reason for raising would be for the initiative and we can rep a much stronger hand than just limping.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Let's play this hand. What do I have?:

Lets just say... in a limped pot when someone has the option to bet first and doesnt take it, but finds a raise to someones bet. Smells of a draw to me all day long. Why would you check two pair or a set and risk it getting checked behind giving out a free turn? Youd definitely be piling in the money straight away.  You also havent raised pre. Thats why i wouldnt be putting you on top two sets. So that leaves bottom set and weird two pairs... but as I say.. if you had such a strong hand on quite a wet flop youd be piling the money in to charge for draws rather than check raising. If we are not happy to raise pre because 'what happens if I get called'... then its simple. Dont play the hand. If you dont want to be put into an awkward spot dont put yourself there in the first place. 
Posted by gazza127

This deep it's fine to limp all kinds of hands. Have to put 25 into 125 and Im sat with around 40bbs. Im gonna limp lots of hands in this spot.  If I flop a set or 2 pair or even say TK Im gonna c/r a fair amount of the time as the guy in position will usually take the initiative and bet when checked too.