hand from mini

jdsallstar

This was basically my exiting hand from the mini and wondering should I do anything different. Its pretty standard but just wanted a few thoughts.

first up reads on villain - hadn't stepped out of line too much, the rest of the table was going a bit mad early on but he seemed reasonably solid (as far as i could gather anyway). RR'd ak from db and rr all in with 10's when got a little low stacked so nothing out of the ordinary to suggest he was holding anything other than a solid hand. When he raised ak pre earlier 1 guy had limped for 20 I raised my AJ to 80 and he raised from db to 260. So the small reraise preflop on the hand below made me think he was uber strong especially as he was oop.

It looked like aces and smelt like aces to me but had no specific reads to lay the ladies down. Reshoved the flop because thought the pot size raise on the flop looked big for aces on what was a good flop for AA so that led me to think he could possible be on a lower pair (10 10 - QQ).

Specific question

Should I just shove preflop?
Is flatting pre just my inner nitty dym player coming out in me? 
Would flatting the flop and reassessing on the turn be a better strategy if I really suspect AA or does that just allow AK to catch the turn?
I assume I can never fold unless I have a really solid read?

Cheers
JD

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
villain	Small blind		40.00	40.00	2990.00
Lambert180	Big blind		80.00	120.00	940.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
Gandalf85	Fold
Pedrom9	Fold
jdsallstar	Raise		200.00	320.00	3670.00
SJspanky1	Fold
villain	Raise		320.00	640.00	2670.00
Lambert180	Fold
jdsallstar	Call		160.00	800.00	3510.00
Flop
		9 5 8
villain	Bet		800.00	1600.00	1870.00
jdsallstar	All-in		3510.00	5110.00	0.00
villain	All-in		1870.00	6980.00	0.00
jdsallstar	Unmatched bet		840.00	6140.00	840.00
Villain	Show	A A
jdsallstar	Show	Q Q
Turn
		3
River
		A
Villain	Win	Three Aces	6140.00		6140.00

hhyftrftdr

I would be suspicious of the very small raise out of position ( a raise that appears to want action). There is also no real need to jam the flop. Classic case of folding out almost all the hands we beat, and only getting called when behind.

Just call the turn and reasses. We may still go broke as laying down QQ on a 9 high board ain't easy, but if he pots it again on that turn we gotta ask ourselves is he really double barrelling with AK here? 

Couldn't argue if you looked to get it in pre by the way.

IDONKCALLU

4 bet pre to gin 

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

I would be suspicious of the very small raise out of position ( a raise that appears to want action). There is also no real need to jam the flop. Classic case of folding out almost all the hands we beat, and only getting called when behind. Just call the turn and reasses. We may still go broke as laying down QQ on a 9 high board ain't easy, but if he pots it again on that turn we gotta ask ourselves is he really double barrelling with AK here?  Couldn't argue if you looked to get it in pre by the way.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I just thought the pot size raise on the flop was him just wanting the hand to end right there so that's when I started thinking he didn't have the AA and it was in fact QQ, JJ or maybe even 10 10. On a 9 high flop I don't think he's folding any of those hands and in the 15 seconds (or whatever the timer gives) I was just thinking it was a double or bust hand. he's almost certainly shoving the turn and any ace or king probably means a fold for me.

As soon as it was over I wondered if flatting the flop was the right play - still unsure

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

4 bet pre to gin 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Can I ask the reasoning why?

If I 4 bet him surely that leaves me no wiser. As most of the time he shoves AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AK (maybe even 10s) anyway. What does it gain I suppose is my question?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

In Response to Re: hand from mini : I just thought the pot size raise on the flop was him just wanting the hand to end right there so that's when I started thinking he didn't have the AA and it was in fact QQ, JJ or maybe even 10 10. On a 9 high flop I don't think he's folding any of those hands and in the 15 seconds (or whatever the timer gives) I was just thinking it was a double or bust hand. he's almost certainly shoving the turn and any ace or king probably means a fold for me. As soon as it was over I wondered if flatting the flop was the right play - still unsure
Posted by jdsallstar

What range do you think villain is putting you on? It's unlikely you have a big Ace as this may well have been 4bet pre (and he has 2 in his hand) or KK. More likely holdings are small to medium/semi large pocket pairs and suited connectors. Well if you have a PP that hasn't hit a set, this isn't a bad board for you, equally suited connectors could've picked up some reasonable equity or hit this board sideways. Hence (I assume) why he bets large on that flop, to get value from said 2 potential hands but to also, somewhat, disguise the strength of his own hand.

A pot sized bet is usually polarising, so he is either crushing us with an overpair, or has the AK type hand that on this board we are comfortably ahead of. I wouldn't jam here thinking 'oh I don't want an A or K to fall on the turn and I'll have to fold so lets try win it now'. He either has the goods or he hasn't, but don't worry too much about being outdrawn; if he does have AK then he has 6 outs twice, so is drawing pretty thin really. 

You say he may well play JJ and 1010 in a similar manner, another reason to call this flop bet and use our positional advantage on the turn.

It would've been even more interesting if you flat the flop, and he jams on that low turn card, spliting things right down the middle in terms of what we beat (10s and Js) and what we don't (AA/kk, I'd probs rule out AK by now unless I knew the villain reasonably well).

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

In Response to Re: hand from mini : What range do you think villain is putting you on? It's unlikely you have a big Ace as this may well have been 4bet pre. More likely holdings are small to medium pocket pairs and suited connectors. Well if you have a PP that hasn't hit a set, this isn't a bad board for you, equally suited connectors could've picked up some reasonable equity or hit this board sideways. Hence (I assume) why he bets large on that flop, to get value from said 2 potential hands but to also, somewhat, disguise the strength of his own hand. A pot sized bet is usually polarising, so he is either crushing us with an overpair, or has the AK type hand that on this board we are comfortably ahead of. I wouldn't jam here thinking 'oh I don't want an A or K to fall on the turn and I'll have to fold so lets try win it now'. He either has the goods or he hasn't, but don't worry too much about being outdrawn; if he does have AK then he has 6 outs twice, so is drawing pretty thin really.  You say he may well play JJ and 1010 in a similar manner, another reason to call this flop bet and use our positional advantage on the turn. It would've been even more interesting if you flat the flop, and he jams on that low turn card, spliting things right down the middle in terms of what we beat (10s and Js) and what we don't (AA/kk, I'd probs rule out AK by now unless I knew the villain reasonably well).
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Perfect, that's helped immensely!!

As you say I'd probably still be faced with the same tough decision on the turn (assuming he shoves) but at least if he fires a second barrel I could forgive myself for laying them down.

ps this is why i'd like a time bank - 15 seconds is just not long enough for my amateur poker brain to work through this kind of situation and I end up too often thinking shove or fold!

jdsallstar

Just a follow up - is there any merit in 4 betting pre and if so how much?

Lambert180

Depends on the villian for 4betting, if you suspect that when you 4bet you'll only get action from AA/KK and so intend to 4bet and fold to a raise, then it would be a terrible idea to 4bet.

If you think that 4betting can get him to shove a wider range... AK/JJ/TT maybe AQ (as well as obv QQ+), then it's better. It's also better if you think he might just flat call a 4bet with a few even weaker hands like AJ/99.

If you 4bet, he's gone to 360 total so I'd go to around 820 total, you don't wanna go too small but you still want him to feel like he could reshove and possibly make you fold sometimes or that he can call with weaker hands and still have enough to fold the flop if he wants to.

F_Ivanovic

meh, disagree with hh and think we should shove/fold flop and not just call. I would only consider flatting if I thought there was a good chance of him bluff shoving the turn (in which case I'd be snapping turn off) - I really don't think we can ever flat flop and fold to a turn bet, especially given the price we are now getting on the turn. Yes AK only has 6 outs but there's enough  money in the pot and I'd rather just force him to fold his hand (or call if he wants)

I actually think I would fold to the flop bet here though given how large the sizing is. Had it been sized smaller you can potentially call 1 and fold the turn but against this sizing when shove/fold is the only option IMO I would just make my decision now.

jdsallstar

thanks for the replies fellas much appreciated.

rancid

call flop, let vill continue with worse

dont' fold unless your just set mining pre

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

call flop, let vill continue with worse dont' fold unless your just set mining pre
Posted by rancid

We have good enough odds pre to call purely for setmining value. That being said QQ is strong enough we don't neccessarily need to continue post flop w/o a set. If villain only bets small on the flop we would for sure at least call 1 bet. But when he bets big we now are forced to decide whether or not we want to play QQ for stacks. Calling flop to fold turn would just be really bad. 

So we have more info on villains range now and if we think we are ahead we can go ahead and shove (or call/call turn) and if we think we are behind we should just fold now.

IDONKCALLU

the click bk min raise    

could be 1 of 2 things could even be a missclick as the std not many do click bk min raises

im getting it in here not coz i think its teh best thing to do but u beat alot of hands 1010 jj ak could easily click bk here to polarise there hand to just kk or aa u must have really gd reads im 4 betting here all the time 

cash table deeper stack can geta away from this easy 

rancid

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

In Response to Re: hand from mini : We have good enough odds pre to call purely for setmining value. That being said QQ is strong enough we don't neccessarily need to continue post flop w/o a set. If villain only bets small on the flop we would for sure at least call 1 bet. But when he bets big we now are forced to decide whether or not we want to play QQ for stacks. Calling flop to fold turn would just be really bad.  So we have more info on villains range now and if we think we are ahead we can go ahead and shove (or call/call turn) and if we think we are behind we should just fold now.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I agree

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: hand from mini:

In Response to Re: hand from mini : We have good enough odds pre to call purely for setmining value. That being said QQ is strong enough we don't neccessarily need to continue post flop w/o a set. If villain only bets small on the flop we would for sure at least call 1 bet. But when he bets big we now are forced to decide whether or not we want to play QQ for stacks. Calling flop to fold turn would just be really bad.  So we have more info on villains range now and if we think we are ahead we can go ahead and shove (or call/call turn) and if we think we are behind we should just fold now.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

So villain bets 450 on the flop into 800 and we call yes? Turn comes a blank (as it did), and villain bets 900 into 1700 pot....what are we doing? Calling and then calling the inevitable river shove if it's a 'safe' card? Or if he ships the turn are we calling?

As we have position, I think we can call that 800. Yeah the pot is getting pretty big, but if we go over the top then we get snapped off by AA/KK or they fold their AK/air hands. 

If we're gonna fold QQ in position on a 9 high board in a 3bet pot to a single, albeit large, c/bet, then we are probably better off just binning pre here.