£250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem

Lambert180

The issue with that arguement tho Teddy is that it's about the best expectation for our range, not for AA or w/e.

Are we gonna start raising different amounts with 22 than with AA because of our expectation for that one particular hand?

For instance, some people with 10xBB shove 22-JJ, but then give them QQ+ and it's a minraise cos they're desperate for action? We don't want to be this face up so we have to take maybe less expectation from some hands to get more from others for the good of our whole range.

TeddyBloat

I see that point, and its a great one, lambert which is why I'd be minraise folding a bunch of stuff too. Id still be jamming hands, the beauty of 11-13 bb stack depths is that there are a bunch of hands like A2o or K4s that we can also unexploitably shove if we want to blind on blind, shoving small pairs is also not open for exploitation at these depths.. So we can take advantage of the property of our hand whilst still remaining pretty balanced. Also we get the added value of both cheaper bluffs with our minr/F range and getting to call light resteals with hands like AQ AA that crush resteal hands like Q8o or J9s that might otherwise  fold to a shove.

I dunno, how active do we need to ge 13bb deep and away from the money? It's all about accumulating chips and doing so cheaply here, and fast, non?

Im not going to be playing face-up hopefully, but having a mixed strat at these depths is fine imo. It allows us to bluff without putting our entire stack at risk, bluff more often, and gives us a better chance of a double up. Again im talking about when fokded to us in the SB or button.

Cheers, 

TEDDY

Jac35

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

The issue with that arguement tho Teddy is that it's about the best expectation for our range, not for AA or w/e. Are we gonna start raising different amounts with 22 than with AA because of our expectation for that one particular hand? For instance, some people with 10xBB shove 22-JJ, but then give them QQ+ and it's a minraise cos they're desperate for action? We don't want to be this face up so we have to take maybe less expectation from some hands to get more from others for the good of our whole range.
Posted by Lambert180

I understand what you're saying Paul but against randoms we don't really need to worry about being balanced.

I don't really get some of this thread. Are we really saying it's fine to raise/fold from a 13bb stack?

TeddyBloat

Yes.

Cheers, 

TEDDY

Phantom66

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : I don't really get some of this thread. Are we really saying it's fine to raise/fold from a 13bb stack?
Posted by Jac35

Possibly - given a tight table (and this is the bubble) why not?

BB has a big stack and is peeling flops but playing very passive post

In this case there is an argument that raising any 2 cards has +ev if min-raised

Could be worth getting involved in a few pots to try and increase stack with minimal risk until bubble is burst especially when even if the worst happens and we have given up and got down to 8/9bb after the hand we are still x2 shorty on the bubble and have fold equity if we shove.

fwiw I haven't my mind on shoving AK here though!

F_Ivanovic

The worst thing we want to be doing is getting involved in a pot where we leave ourselves a chip size that has no fold equity. But as long as we have fold equity, we're OK. Many times I've got down to 6bbs in a tourney but then shoved a few times in good spots and all of a sudden I'm back up to 10bbs where I haven't even had to go to showdown.

Lambert180

I agree that against weaker players we don't need to be totally balanced but it really doesn't take someone to have much of a brain to figure it out. Like if we saw someone shoving loads, then saw them minraise once and it got to showdown and they had AA for instance. If that happens once, that alone I think will be enough for most people to be more cautious when they minraise and less so when they shove.

Said this last night to Jac on a table but just for others,I think mr/fold with 13xBB is ok against the right opponents. But imo 13xBB is th absolute lowest stack we should ever do it from, and it HAS to be V players we know to be very tight.

For instance, if it's folded to us in the SB and we know the BB will call a shove AJ+ and 88+ and they will also reshove the same range. Why on earth would I want to ship A9o (or even 72o). They're playing about 7% of hands, so we minraise with literally ATC and get folds 93% of the time... VERY +EV.... the 7% of the time they shove on us, we fold everything we've minraised except something like AQ+ TT+, rinse and repeat. Unless they go on a sick run of cards, we'll steal FAR more BBs than they do the odd time they reship. Again would only use this strat against someone I don't think is good enough to adapt and start reshoving wider etc but there are bucket loads of people like that.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

@ Teddy 13bb is not deep and is not playable - Think we have opposing approaches to MTT play when short @ivan, ok so you are putting pressure on 10bb stacks - that's fine but I actually prefer a m/r not ever a flat on btn
Posted by rancid

I swear I saw you calling min-r in the BB tonight with less than a 13bb stack

rancid

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : I swear I saw you calling min-r in the BB tonight with less than a 13bb stack
Posted by F_Ivanovic

 funny cause I thought you would notice.

hhyftrftdr

Ryan making some interesting comments on the show tonight regarding shoving/3bet jamming sizes and ranges. 

Lambert180

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

Ryan making some interesting comments on the show tonight regarding shoving/3bet jamming sizes and ranges. 
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I've missed it, what's he saying? Has he recommended the iso to 50% of your stack move yet?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem:

In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : I've missed it, what's he saying? Has he recommended the iso to 50% of your stack move yet?
Posted by Lambert180

In a word.....No. 

Just a few hands where he was advocating 3bet jamming with a 19/20bb. One where a guy raised cutoff with 33 and he said the button (KJh and 19bb) should be r/r all in. 

Another where cutoff minraise, SB made up and the BB (AJs and 20bb) should be squeeze shoving.

People approach MTT's in all different ways, but I certainly share Scotty77's viewpoint in regards to a 20 or so bb stack. Get busy when we have great F/E, instead of dwindling down and getting desperate. My Primo exit might look pretty spewy to some people but I'd make that play again (limp, raise from Liamboi, I jammed 18bb on the button with AJ, sb woke up with AK). It was a player dependent move that didn't work out

Thats a compliment for Liamboi before anyone tries to stir up trouble!