Shove Flop?

LARSON7

Opponent donk pot bets flop, i'm not loving it but feel i have to get it in here given stacks, i do'nt want to call i'd ratherfold than call.

I only have a bout 20bigs behind, quite happy getting this in here, mistake?

Mal007	Small blind		150.00	150.00	16635.00
fezispoo	Big blind		300.00	450.00	5113.32
	Your hole cards	J A
elipeter	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		600.00	1050.00	7321.25
RockSolid	Call		600.00	1650.00	13995.00
wee_pero	Fold
Mal007	Call		450.00	2100.00	16185.00
fezispoo	Fold
Flop
		4 A Q
Mal007	Bet		2100.00	4200.00	14085.00
LARSON7	All-in		7321

LARSON7

Have had a better look at this definatly think it is a misstep.

Probably is a fold imo, and i still have an above average stack with about 30 to the bubble.

The only hand i'm beating is a weaker ace, and pretty sure this is not a bluff. In saying that it's quite a decent board for AJ. AK/AQ are beating me, 4s and queens. Would expect AK and Queens to 3 bet pre, and maybe AQ too. What's the chances he's doing this with Ace 10, maybe, 9 possible, 8 unlikely...

If i call the bet, i have 5k behind into an 6k pot, whatever the turn is i'm getting set all in, most likely.

If they set me in it's 5k to win 11k, i doubt i can fold it. Any argument for calling here?

All this mixed together, a fold i guess.

LARSON7

Have spoke to a few people about this hand, the consensus is unanimous it should be a call!

Shows how much i don't know lol

DoubleAAA

If you call the flop bet, then what do you do when he bets turn? Fold? That would be too spewy.  Unless you feel you have the best hand on the flop and you want him to fire the turn and are scared he will fold if you shove, then just flat call otherwise you have to shove if you think you're ahead or fold if behind.

cenachav

For me you can't call here unless you are willing to get all your chips in the middle on the turn.   If you call then the pot is 6300 and you have 5200 left as you have said above and you really have to call any shove if you want to win the tourny.

Personally I am reshoving here.  You have raised with AJ and the flop is A high.  Happy days.  I can understand the fold as you still have a decent stack compared to the blinds but I prefer the shove

DOHHHHHHH

Prob the easiest call you'll make all tourny

F_Ivanovic

These spots are always quite interesting in terms of trying to balance our range. Obviously calling is the most +ev in a vacuum, but are there any hands that we would ever shove here? I mean we obviously don't want to shove sets and 2 pair because the board is so dry that we can slowplay. That being said, if we ever want to bluff shove here with say JThh we need to be shoving with some hands or else our opponent can happily b/c his A5 or KQ. 

Then again I'm not sure we do ever want to bluff here since any bluff hand really doesn't have enough equity in case of being called. And our range is going to be strong enough anyway that we don't need to be bluffing. 

We do have to consider that our opponent may bet/call with A8 but on a K/J/T/Q turn might slow down actually so maybe shoving with the weaker part of our range that we are sure is ahead now is probably OK. AJ and AK would be good candidates for that and we can just slow play AQ/AA/QQ. And flat with AT/A9/A8/KQ/KK? and fold all the rest.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Shove Flop?:

If you call the flop bet, then what do you do when he bets turn? Fold? That would be too spewy.  Unless you feel you have the best hand on the flop and you want him to fire the turn and are scared he will fold if you shove, then just flat call otherwise you have to shove if you think you're ahead or fold if behind.
Posted by DoubleAAA

?

Larson, easy call. If you have decent reads that villain will pay you off with a worse hand then ship it, but we need these reads to jam for value. 

Call flop, and call their all in on the turn (assuming they'd take that line)

LARSON7

Quite an interesting position.

-HH just new to the table, only been there for a couple of hands so no reads.

In all my time playing poker i've never seen a donk flop bet that was pot sized at this stage in a tournie.

You don't have much time to think on sky, but quickly i didn't see him being superstrong, why would you pot bet the flop (donk bet) if you were really strong. I know we can't judge by how we would play a hand, this was just my thought process at the time (in 15 seconds or however long the time bar is!).

By the same token, i felt with such a chunky bet it wasn't a bluff and opponent wasn't folding to a shove. I wasn't loving it but felt i had to given my stack and stage of tournie (shove). That was my thinking on this hand, quite honestly the villians flop bet through me.

Prob a bit of a leak of mines, i always want to be the aggressor putting the decision on some1 else, instead of me having to call an all in (without a really strong hand like top pair good kickeR)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better line as many have mentioned above is just calling,

Just calling keeps in opponents weaker hands, where as shoving will fold out weaker hands.

We're calling here to try and get it in on a later street.



 

Lambert180

Easy call.

You're probably ahead and shoving folds out most of the hands we beat. When we are ahead we're gonna be way ahead so don't need to be scared of them catching up on the turn very often.

If we flat we have pretty much a PSB left on turn and we have position so we know we can GII 100% of the time on the turn no matter what he does.

F_Ivanovic

Going to refer back to my post; if we only call this, do we ever have a shoving range on the flop? Probably don't need one but if we do shove villain can surely snap with any pair since we are never shoving a value hand here.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Shove Flop?:

Going to refer back to my post; if we only call this, do we ever have a shoving range on the flop? Probably don't need one but if we do shove villain can surely snap with any pair since we are never shoving a value hand here.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I don't think we're ever likely to be semi-bluffing here, because we'd think that we never have fold equity against the full-pot lead out. If we were shoving a draw, it would have to be a massive draw like JTs, but we'd just be shoving our equity. (Just realised the 4 is a club, not a spade. Ignore this. There are no massive draws)

So I don't think we're ever bluff shoving here. I think we'd need the dynamic against the villain that we're perceived to not shove our value hands here, to make the shove fine with those hands.

It looks like a call to me if we're continuing, since we can commit stacks so easily on later streets anyway. I think AJ is the bottom of my calling range, though.

Lambert180

Yeah don't think we need a shoving range here at all? We'd flat our entire value range from QTo through to AA (assuming we don't have notes that flatting 2nd pr mid kicker isn't good).

BorinLoner

Folding wouldn't be terrible, btw. If we don't think the villain is leading out weak here, then folding is fine.

There might only be a couple of hands that beat us in his range - 44, AQ, A4s - but if we think his range is polarised by this bet, can we really give him any bluffs on this flop?

If we don't know his range is polarised, I think we can call down profitably. In a vacuum I think that random villain's are leading weaker Aces just about enough.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: Shove Flop?:

Folding wouldn't be terrible, btw. If we don't think the villain is leading out weak here, then folding is fine. There might only be a couple of hands that beat us in his range - 44, AQ, A4s - but if we think his range is polarised by this bet, can we really give him any bluffs on this flop? If we don't know his range is polarised, I think we can call down profitably. In a vacuum I think that random villain's are leading weaker Aces just about enough.
Posted by BorinLoner

folding is terrible

IDONKCALLU

no point in shoving as u want bluffs in 

call then call the shove on the turn 

by shoving the flop u getting the opponent to fold bluffs n could fold ace rags 

IDONKCALLU

You don't have much time to think on sky, but quickly i didn't see him being superstrong, why would you pot bet the flop (donk bet) if you were really strong. I know we can't judge by how we would play a hand, this was just my thought process at the time (in 15 seconds or however long the time bar is!).

if u didnt put him on a strong hand when he donk lead why shove ?

F_Ivanovic

tbh a lot of his donking range is going to be worse aces IMO. He may go broke with them anyway but if he's pot betting a worse ace he's almost definitely going to call a shove. And do we want him to slow down if another high card comes? So I wouldn't say it's a clear cut definite call. We'd need to believe the donk pot bet could be bluffs or that he would fold weak aces to a shove for it to be a clear call.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Shove Flop?:

In Response to Re: Shove Flop? : folding is terrible
Posted by THEROCK573

Well, no. As I said, if we think his bet is polarising and we don't think he's donking full-pot an AQx flop with air, then not folding would be terrible.

I'm not saying we have that belief, though.

rancid

yes villian could have AQ/A4 plus every other Ax - doubt it contains bluffs - maybe KJ but that just doesn't fit player type

call and ask villian to do it again
don't see any reason to shove and risk them folding, the more we make it look like weak Ax/Qx/draw the better


dont complain when they outdraw you though, that's pretty standard