Correct to shove? DYM ICM Question...

Phantom66

DYM still 5 handed - felt I could only shove here - but was it the correct play?

Hand History #705815139 (22:32 01/11/2013)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SFCPKR	Small blind		300.00	300.00	2430.00
nobias	Big blind		600.00	900.00	1385.00
	Your hole cards	8 8
bigclem1	Call		600.00	1500.00	1550.00
dru69	Fold
Phantom66	All-in		2670.00	4170.00	0.00
SFCPKR	Fold
nobias	Fold
bigclem1	All-in		1550.00	5720.00	0.00
Phantom66	Unmatched bet		520.00	5200.00	520.00
bigclem1	Show	K 10
Phantom66	Show	8 8
Flop
		2 3 10
Turn
		Q
River
		4
bigclem1	Win	Pair of 10s	5200.00		5200.00

F_Ivanovic

Absolutely. Unless you have a read that he's limping with a monster we can shove here and potentially pick up 1500 chips of dead money, which will put is in a great position. If they call then well we probably have at least 55% vs their calling range. So we stand a good chance to get a chip stack which gives us a v.good chance of cashing

If we fold now we might not get a better spot/hand to put our chips in. Might be somewhat better to shove when we have fold equity (after he limps 600 he prob isn't limp/folding) but overall I think shoving is definitely the best play here.

BorinLoner

I don't like shoving here. I don't think there are 1500 chips of dead money because I think we have zero fold equity, or near enough.

It would be very helpful to know the stack size of the fifth player at the table, Phantom.

Of the four stacks we can see, we are the biggest stack. At the end of this hand at least one of either the limper or the big blind is going to be playing fewer then 3BB. Admittedly we're only playing 4.5BB, but that's a sizeable difference in relative terms.

At this stage of a DYM we want to be getting our money in first, as long as we have some fold equity (which we should do against some of our "deep" opponents). If we shove here, chances are that we're flipping and we may occasionally be dominated. I don't think we can rule out underpairs, but I think the most likely situation is that we're behind or flipping. That's not a situation we need to put ourselves in as the (apparent) chip leader.

I don't play DYM's, but this looks like a clear fold to me.

Phantom66

edit with corrections and link to Borins post which I hadn't seen before 1st post:

At first I just thought oh well, I had to shove and opponent had to call, I was ahead and got outdrawn - nothing to discuss.

However...

I was effective chip lead at this point- not by much as 1-2BB spreads the field so I know I need to keep busy and cant just sit back.

In previous levels I had jammed over limps when I was DB or BB and taken uncontested pots 2/3 times. I think the key point is should I have adjusted my play with the blinds so big v avg size?

I am seriously questioning whether a fold might be better in this situation (DYM). 

1. Villain should be calling the shove

- I am not likely to be dominating a small pair - almost certainly racing slightly ahead. OK blinds give us both pot odds but is that enough in a DYM.

2. Could be a hand where 2/3 others get busy and my expectation increases significantly with no risk.

- If I fold Villain and BB are in a pot - SB may even enter pot and so there is a high chance one of my opponents could take more than 1BB hit and a possibility that one will get stacked.

As for "not finding a better spot" if I fold...

I don't need a better hand to have a better spot - I can open shove with worse and have a higher +EV on the play.

Stack sizes as follows: chips behind first then chips committed to pot in brackets at the point of my decision.

SB         Sfc                  2430 (300)
BB         Nobias         1385 (600)
UTG      Biclem         1550 (600)
UTG+1 Dru9              2465 [folded]
DB        Phantom     2670

 

Interesting to have 2 opposite views from 2 respected posters - guess it shows it wasn't a straight forward decision.

I am definitely not a DYM specialist - I am currently playing both forms of STT and trying to improve strategies for both.

In a 6max I am shoving every time here at those blind levels as the extra risk can be rewarded with the skewed prize for 1st spot.

TeddyBloat

ok i plugged some numbers into ICMIZER, haven't fully got to grips with it for DYM's i use it for heads up analysis.

i gave the blinds uber tight calling and reshove ranges [JJ+ basically]

i gave our limper a 29% limping range with no fold equity

it has 88 as an ICM+ev shove, though tis marginal.




i then took out monster pairs and broadway aces from his limping range and added in some suited connectors, again with no fold equity.

88 then becomes a more clear ICM+ev move




note we can profitably shove as waek as KJo, 66 and A4s given the later assumptions.

you can download icimizer for free and you get 3 free calculations per day. it's really helpful for post game analysis. like i said you might be able to plug better DYM ranges in, im FAR from an expert on this software, still new to me.

****edit****

annoyingly i am out of calcs for today. i had not entered the correct stack sizes [basically i had not realised that the stack sizes you posted did not include chips in pot]. so the result may well be different. not wildly but it might turn a marginal shove into a fold. have a go yourself, phantom it's a great piece of kit.

****edit****


cheers,
TEDDY

Phantom66

Thanks Teddy - I will give it a go later