Cash v MTT v SNGs

chicknMelt

Thought i would start a post on the differences between cash, MTTs and SNGs... 

which do you think there is more profit to be had in? 

what for you, are the key differences?

what do you prefer and why?

for me, there is more profit in MTTs (im rubbish at cash), ok at SNGs.

key differences for me are:

 - cash is a more pure, more boring version of the game (hehe). I've heard people saying the varience is lower for cash, and for the most part I think they are right... but what about the sky MTTs (small fields, BH or deep/rebuy formats mostly). decisions are purely based on hand equity etc. e.g. your never going to fold a hand you think has 55% equity, whereas in a tourney you might!

-tourneys have much bigger ups and downs - nothing better than a big binkage, and nothing worse than a bad beat/horrible mistake that can literally cost you thousands. tourneys are more to do with surviving while keeping ahead of blinds, and has lots of different dynamics depending on the stage of the tourney. you also have no choice what table you play on and there are other considerations than just your hand equity (namely ICM). i also think its generally accepted that the standard of play is worse in MTTs than cash

-SNGs - kind of like MTTs, but a more boring version... no big binks more focused on the short game than MTTs in general. also, its probably alot harder to find a juicy higher stakes SNG than it would be to find a MTT or cash game.

I Obv prefer MTTs - I like the rush of playing them which I dont get from cash. HU cash though, has alot of action, so I dont mind that.

F_Ivanovic

which do you think there is more profit to be had in?

Cash games for sure. It's easier to move up through the cash levels than it is in tournaments because the variance of tournaments means you often have to play the same BI tournaments for a long time. That being said tournaments do give you the oppertunity to bink big scores in a relatively small amount of time whereas with cash you'll never become a millionaire after a session! Also, being a good cash player can transfer to being a good tournament player whereas the opposite is often less true (Think Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu) - 

what for you, are the key differences?

So many differences between the formats. Variance is obviously heavier in tournaments although it's also good to know that when you enter a tournament you can only lose X amount. In cash games you really don't have any any idea how much you will win/lose when you start a session! Tournaments can definitely offer a lot more fun but they can also be a lot more frustrating/tilting ESPECIALLY the bigger field tournaments. I like the tournaments on Sky cause at most you're going to play for 3/4 hours usually. Whereas on other sites with bigger fields you can sometimes be playing for 7/8 hours. Obviously that's great if we go on and FT/win it but if we end up min-cashing/bubbline or w/e it just seems a huge waste of time. You can sit on a cash table and make a healthy profit with just a good 1 hour session.

what do you prefer and why?I've made the majority of my money from poker playing cash and definitely used to prefer cash but I often get bored of the grind and enjoy a good tournament and some excitement! But then when I have a bad run of luck in tournaments, I go back to enjoying cash! Will have to say overall that it's got to be cash.

Not really talked about SNG's much. They're definitely the least profitable out of the 3. Mostly cause the edge in them is never going to be huge. But they're lower variance and can be the least tilting form of poker for sure. 

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

Cash games for sure. It's easier to move up through the cash levels than it is in tournaments because the variance of tournaments means you often have to play the same BI tournaments for a long time. That being said tournaments do give you the oppertunity to bink big scores in a relatively small amount of time whereas with cash you'll never become a millionaire after a session! Also, being a good cash player can transfer to being a good tournament player whereas the opposite is often less true (Think Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu) -  So many differences between the formats. Variance is obviously heavier in tournaments although it's also good to know that when you enter a tournament you can only lose X amount. In cash games you really don't have any any idea how much you will win/lose when you start a session! Tournaments can definitely offer a lot more fun but they can also be a lot more frustrating/tilting ESPECIALLY the bigger field tournaments. I like the tournaments on Sky cause at most you're going to play for 3/4 hours usually. Whereas on other sites with bigger fields you can sometimes be playing for 7/8 hours. Obviously that's great if we go on and FT/win it but if we end up min-cashing/bubbline or w/e it just seems a huge waste of time. You can sit on a cash table and make a healthy profit with just a good 1 hour session. I've made the majority of my money from poker playing cash and definitely used to prefer cash but I often get bored of the grind and enjoy a good tournament and some excitement! But then when I have a bad run of luck in tournaments, I go back to enjoying cash! Will have to say overall that it's got to be cash. Not really talked about SNG's much. They're definitely the least profitable out of the 3. Mostly cause the edge in them is never going to be huge. But they're lower variance and can be the least tilting form of poker for sure. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

 a millionaire after a session - unless your name is Viktor Blom..

if we end up min-cashing/bubbline or w/e it just seems a huge waste of time... even worse are when you get to the last 2 tables of a big field tourney and dont get to the final table...I came 11th in the sunday storm fairly recently...30,000+ runners, $30k + for 1st... $900 for 11th. sooo gut wrenchingly tilting to go out at that stage.

being a good cash player can transfer to being a good tournament player whereas the opposite is often less true - so true. you can probably be a winning tourney player without really knowing much other than shove/ calling ranges... cash players have all the fundamentals they just need to know how to apply them in tourneys

FCHD

Really? You win $900 and it is "gut wrenchingly tilting"? Perhaps you're in the wrong game?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

Really? You win $900 and it is "gut wrenchingly tilting"? Perhaps you're in the wrong game?
Posted by FCHD

Lol I know what you mean, but I also know what Chicken means.

Very deep runs in very big tournies do not come along very often. It's not like you're gonna come 11th out of 30,000 runners once a week, or once a month, or even once every 6 months, so it's pretty gutting when you see how much is up top for finishing just a few places higher. Obv I'm not complaining that MTTs are top heavy, they 100% should be.

I've had similar feelings but on a much smaller scale, like small BIs on other sites where 1st is €1.5k and you come 14th and get like €60 lol

Jac35

I would normally agree with you FHCD.

On this occasion though, I could totally understand how disappointing it would be.

To get so far and just miss out on the big money is tough. It's not exactly easy to get through a field that big and it's certainly not going to be a regular occurrence for anyone.

Think the "one time" shout is fair enough in this situation.

Jac35

Ffs, Lamberts gets there first with more or less the exact same post!

hhyftrftdr

Yeah I'd be pretty pi55ed off if I came 11th in the Storm.

gazza127

Its not being tilted as such... its the fact that you get so close and you start considering what could have been.

Similarly when I came so close to the 10k jackpot (dont know if ive told anyone this),  I was feeling a mixture of dissapointment and dejection, however coupled with pride that I had gotten so close.  Mix that with a bit of anger at myself for possibly making an error, and its easy to see why you can come out of a tournament, having binked a nice sum of money and still end up feeling pretty mift.

I'll be lucky to get that close again.

chicknMelt

spot on Lambert and Jac... obv $900 is nice, but its the feeling of your one shot to make it big being snatched away from you when you are just a few places away from making it. and after playing your heart out for hours and hours, probably 9/10 hrs in this case. especially if its a bad beat. which it was.  

in the same 2 week period i also finished 18th in the bigger 55 (4000+), 24th in the big 162(1000 or so) and 15th in the big 11 (6000+). believe me, runs like that don't come around often and to not get a big score from it is horrible and demoralising. the difference is, that the smaller scores will just help you to tread water, you need the big scores to really make a profit in MTTs

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

spot on Lambert and Jac... obv $900 is nice, but its the feeling of your one shot to make it big being snatched away from you when you are just a few places away from making it. and after playing your heart out for hours and hours, probably 9/10 hrs in this case. especially if its a bad beat. which it was.   in the same 2 week period i also finished 18th in the bigger 55 (4000+), 24th in the big 162(1000 or so) and 15th in the big 11 (6000+). believe me, runs like that don't come around often and to not get a big score from it is horrible and demoralising. the difference is, that the smaller scores will just help you to tread water, you need the big scores to really make a profit in MTTs
Posted by chicknMelt

Spot on. $900 isn't to be sniffed at, but 10 spots away from 30k....

I'm tilted just thinking about it! And I haven't played the Storm for months.

rancid

Tricket came 2nd in the one drop for 10mil $ and was really unhappy


maybe because he only got £56.00 after he payed out

IDONKCALLU

cash is the way to make money but i prefer mtts as nowt better then running deep in a mtt getting to a final table ya heart starts pounding trying to win a big score if u win a big score on a cash table doesnt seem the same 

if u win a big pot in a mtt means nothing really still ages to go before u cash win a big pot in cash u play more comftable 3 bet more call alot more think u are on a heater 

reason i like mtts u only lose ya buy in i like the bet small win big mentallity like tonight in the turbo open 

u lose with aces on a cash table ya talking a buy in on a mtt just a small outlay each to there own but cash for the grind like a job mtts for show 

TeddyBloat

I use sngs to fund my unsuccessful forays into mtts

Husngs are my game of choice, have only played 2 or cash sessions. 

Really putting some effort into learning mtts and im enjoying them more as a result. I reckon they must be way more enjoyable when you win a few pennies. 

With regard to profitability the most profitable players in the world are prolly the sng grinders. Dan coleman regularly has 100k+ weeks and with rake back has has easily cleared 1m this year.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

I use sngs to fund my unsuccessful forays into mtts Husngs are my game of choice, have only played 2 or cash sessions.  Really putting some effort into learning mtts and im enjoying them more as a result. I reckon they must be way more enjoyable when you win a few pennies.  With regard to profitability the most profitable players in the world are prolly the sng grinders. Dan coleman regularly has 100k+ weeks and with rake back has has easily cleared 1m this year.
Posted by TeddyBloat

Dan Coleman - is he the HU SNG dude from stars? ... He plays $5k HU sngs... So that's only 20 BI in a week... Some cash players do that in a day... An hour even. Even if he has cleared a mill, there are quite a few cash players hat have cleared more: (prepare for bad spelling) Nicholas heinicker $4m, viktor blom $3.5m, Ben tollerene $2.7m, no_ola/odd_oddsen $3m, Alex Millar $2m etc etc. probably 10 have cleared a mill. That is mostly HU cash tho.

Seems the money is in HU games, either cash or SNGs... Doubt any MTT player (other than viktor blom who has played like 5 MTTs and had over £1m in cashes lol) has broken £1m in Profit this yr.

hhyftrftdr

Saw today that Gus Hansen is over $7m down this year on FTP, and $14m down lifetime on same site. 

I just can't comprehend such figures.

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs : Dan Coleman - is he the HU SNG dude from stars? ... He plays $5k HU sngs... So that's only 20 BI in a week... Some cash players do that in a day... An hour even. Even if he has cleared a mill, there are quite a few cash players hat have cleared more: (prepare for bad spelling) Nicholas heinicker $4m, viktor blom $3.5m, Ben tollerene $2.7m, no_ola/odd_oddsen $3m, Alex Millar $2m etc etc. probably 10 have cleared a mill. That is mostly HU cash tho. Seems the money is in HU games, either cash or SNGs... Doubt any MTT player (other than viktor blom who has played like 5 MTTs and had over £1m in cashes lol) has broken £1m in Profit this yr.
Posted by chicknMelt

Yeah thats him, think he earns most from the 1ks though, sick player either way.

Your diary's a great read by the way, well done on your progress so far.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

Saw today that Gus Hansen is over $7m down this year on FTP, and $14m down lifetime on same site.  I just can't comprehend such figures.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

lol, yeah, i was going to inlude that in my post but i forgot. he has been the biggest winner from 3 of the 4 last few days tho to be fair... only make a small dent in his losses still! its crazy to think, but I doubt he is even close to broke.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs : lol, yeah, i was going to inlude that in my post but i forgot. he has been the biggest winner from 3 of the 4 last few days tho to be fair... only make a small dent in his losses still! its crazy to think, but I doubt he is even close to broke.
Posted by chicknMelt

Makes you wonder just how much money the guy has. Curious just how good his deal is at FTP....

$14m, christ! $14 bloody million! 

LnarinOO

cash games for me are the bread and butter- HU cash is the pursest form and i belive the best to learn- and you can take HUNL skills to 6max and tourneys and still be a good player, but very hard to find a winning player the other way around-

i belive the better poker players out of cash and tournies are by far the cash game pros- i think much better skills are needed whereas gettin 20bb into the middle with AK isnt hard in a touney hahah 

shoot me down..!!! 

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

cash games for me are the bread and butter- HU cash is the pursest form and i belive the best to learn- and you can take HUNL skills to 6max and tourneys and still be a good player, but very hard to find a winning player the other way around- i belive the better poker players out of cash and tournies are by far the cash game pros- i think much better skills are needed whereas gettin 20bb into the middle with AK isnt hard in a touney hahah  shoot me down..!!! 
Posted by LnarinOO

completely agree... thats why I play MTTS not good enough to win at cash 

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs : Yeah thats him, think he earns most from the 1ks though, sick player either way. Your diary's a great read by the way, well done on your progress so far.
Posted by TeddyBloat

Thanks for the comment! progress so far isn't great... been a pretty stagnant month, esp considering the extra volume i've been putting in. oh well.

craigcu12

for profit- cash I see as the best form of poker tournaments can be more profitable short term but the thing is you have to make it past the bubble and you are battling with between 200-1000 each time also with MTTs we need to have £100 to really just enter a £2 MTT. cash tables are  just a case of finding the right table and waiting for them hands to come in based upon the position you have.

the key differences I see between then is variance the amount of luck involved and the beats.
variance is the obvious one that I've seen other mention already
when I say luck and beats I mean it in the manner of which with cash most of the luck comes down to them monster vs monster or monster draws. most times the bad beats are cooldowns because if we jam we likely to get called by another hand almost as strong or has masses of outs. in MTTs but you will get to the point where you need to jam to double you stack even if it means 79o

my choice
for action and enterainment I would go with tournaments but improving skill profit and turning pro cash is the preferred choice.

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs : Thanks for the comment! progress so far isn't great... been a pretty stagnant month, esp considering the extra volume i've been putting in. oh well.
Posted by chicknMelt

Lol that comment might have appeared sarcy. Was referring to your overall progress, and your results have been fantastic in general.  The curse of forum diaries means that people almost invariably start them just as they enter a blip!

Cheers,

TEDDY

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs:

In Response to Re: Cash v MTT v SNGs : Lol that comment might have appeared sarcy. Was referring to your overall progress, and your results have been fantastic in general.  The curse of forum diaries means that people almost invariably start them just as they enter a blip! Cheers, TEDDY
Posted by TeddyBloat

ahhh, ok... i didnt take it as a dig, but I did wonder why people had been saying well done... cos to me this month isn't well done atm! not disasterous by any stretch though. I have had near £2k "blips" before - this is just varience and not playing particularly well.