River decision

LARSON7

Live game,

It's the FT 3 handed, we are all really shallow, blinds are 3/6k I have 75kish, opponent has about 48k behind, blind on blind, UTG has folded.

I have Ace 6 o/s, small blind calls.

I check. Most people will say this is a shove, which it probably is, but the previous 2 hands he has just called blind on blind with AQ and a pocket pair, which have got to show down without any betting.

.Flop comes down 448, check check, turn is a 10, villain min bets, 6k I call, OTR it's a 2, opponent bets 9k.

I tanked for a good few minutes, I called on the turn thinking my Ace is good a lot of the time.

Opponent doesn't normally bluff, but he looked really nervous! Normally his body language is quite confident, I was thinking it was a call. I was thinking it over him looking so nervous, he was shaking slightly. I had a bit of chat with him, and he said something, but said it confidently, so I thought I must be wrong he must have atleast bottom pair so ended up folding Ace High.

Opponent flipped over 7 high for a pure bluff.

It was an interesting one, I should have just stuck with my initial read.  

The_Don90

I think pre is a shove, even with your reads but meh i cant say i haven't checked there before. 

On the river its a strange one, live tells are funny. When you nail them you nail them, when you get it wrong you feel like a right donkey. 

In my experiance shakes are almost always a bluff. But i say that you need to understand the shake. You get a nervous shake (bluff) and you get a my heart is racing with excitment shake (the nuts) opponents. Opponents that teand to shake teand to shake in both circumstances, and look confident and calm with anything sort of inbetween (so say two pair on a wetish board). However using one experiance i know very well from a live guy, the shakes are very different. Its hard to explain the differances in them, but they are there. 

I think UTG's stack does matter to an extent for ICM purposes on our decision too. 

I know the guy showed you the bluff, but even though you got it wrong note the tell for future referance. See what he shows if he does it again, and slowly notice suttle differances in it depending on what he shows when it fgoes to showdown. 

In the meantime be happy with the fold. 

hhyftrftdr

I don't think it is a river decision at all.

Why do you call on the turn? Because you think your A high is good. Struggle to see how a river 2 makes any difference, if you were ahead on the turn you will almost always be ahead on the river.

Not consider raising the river? Personally, if I'm calling the turn it's because I think am good and am calling the river, or I have a plan to get a bit fruity and raise it up.

LARSON7

Theres no point in raising the river, i'd get called by any pair, and if he's bluffing then he just folds.

It should have been a call.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: River decision:

I don't think it is a river decision at all. Why do you call on the turn? Because you think your A high is good. Struggle to see how a river 2 makes any difference, if you were ahead on the turn you will almost always be ahead on the river. Not consider raising the river? Personally, if I'm calling the turn it's because I think am good and am calling the river, or I have a plan to get a bit fruity and raise it up.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Not sure why people say this all the time. Yes if we are ahead on the turn then we will almost always still be ahead on the river, but this is one of them spots where villain may be using a "one and done" policy - whereby he gives up on the river after his turn bet was called. So whilst his range for betting one street might include a lot of bluffs his range for betting 2 streets by not.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: River decision:

In Response to Re: River decision : Not sure why people say this all the time. Yes if we are ahead on the turn then we will almost always still be ahead on the river, but this is one of them spots where villain may be using a "one and done" policy - whereby he gives up on the river after his turn bet was called. So whilst his range for betting one street might include a lot of bluffs his range for betting 2 streets by not.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

This is just far too passive and exploitable

BorinLoner

I agree with Harry that we shouldn't call the turn to fold the river, without a good idea that the villain will be one-and-done'ing with his bluffs.

In a vacuum, I don't think we should make that assumption. On the turn we should make the assumption that there's a really good chance that the villain will barrel the river. People don't like to give up on a pot they've put chips into if they see a chance of winning it. If we do fold the turn we're only folding Ace-high, so it's no drama. It's much worse to put more money in on the turn and then fold on a blank river.

As the OP hasn't mentioned any flush draws being present, I'll assume that the board is rainbow on the turn. If not, can the villain be on a draw that's missed?


When it comes to live tells, there's no right answer. Usually our opponent looking nervous means that they're nervous. Whether that's because he's bluffing, hoping for the call or wondering if the missus is going to find out what he's been getting up to on Saturday mornings, we just take our best guess.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: River decision:

In Response to Re: River decision : This is just far too passive and exploitable
Posted by hhyftrftdr

We have better bluff catchers than A high and aren't going to be exploitable by calling turn/folding river. I'm obviously not going to be taking this line vs someone I know will barrel twice but a lot of players (me included?) will just fire one and give up in this spot because it's hard to see what hands hero would call turn to then fold river.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: River decision:

In Response to Re: River decision : We have better bluff catchers than A high and aren't going to be exploitable by calling turn/folding river. I'm obviously not going to be taking this line vs someone I know will barrel twice but a lot of players (me included?) will just fire one and give up in this spot because it's hard to see what hands hero would call turn to then fold river.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Would you call the flop with A high then? And fold to a 2 on the river? Henrik doesn't mention any history or anything (other than the previous 2 hands) and obvs with it being live it's unlikely we'll have a ton of mental notes/reads. 

So in this vacuum, if I call turn I call the river. Clearly, there are people on Sky whom I wouldn't do that as I'm pretty familiar with their game. 

Just seems way, way too passive to call that turn, and give up when a 2 hits on the river in this instance. A bloody 2! 

TeddyBloat

we can have these hard and fast rules but they often contradict each other:

if i'm calling turn then i have to call a blank river

v

people rarely double-barrel on blank rivers.

many hands make light work v too many cooks spoil the broth innit