Line Check

gazza127

OK... just a general line check here...

Thoughts on raising the flop?  Im doing it to charge club draws and possible straight draws.  I bet the turn for value from these hands as well.

Now I suppose the question here is do I value bet the river?  At the time my thinking was if he has missed his draw then im not getting anymore money and more often than not if I bet im only getting called by better (sets... already made flushes).  The only hand I think I can get value from is AK... but decide not to bet on this occasion as I have little room to bet/fold.

Thoughts?

Mactrad1	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£153.06
EBBERDON	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£25.07
	Your hole cards	10 K
XX	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£95.50
gazza127	Call		£1.50	£3.75	£202.78
kcxyz	Call		£1.50	£5.25	£101.76
Mactrad1	Call		£1.25	£6.50	£151.81
EBBERDON	Fold
Flop
		10 6 K
Mactrad1	Check
XX	Bet		£5.00	£11.50	£90.50
gazza127	Raise		£13.25	£24.75	£189.53
kcxyz	Fold
Mactrad1	Fold
XX	Call		£8.25	£33.00	£82.25
Turn
		6
XX	Check
gazza127	Bet		£17.00	£50.00	£172.53
XX	Call		£17.00	£67.00	£65.25
River
		8
XX	Check
gazza127	Check

Lambert180

Had a talking to from Beaneh recently about a situation similar to this where I found myself on the river with a mid strength hand and roughly a PSB left cos I felt like I couldn't bet/fold and none of the options felt great.

If you think he only raises with better and is never gonna bluff shove on you then I think you can bet/fold here. 

Otherwise, seems fine, might go a bit bigger on the turn, if he's gonna call £17 with his draws he'll prob call £21 (or w/e) too.

DOHHHHHHH

Think this is a really easy value bet.

Anything between 14-25ish is better than checking back, in.my.opinion.

F_Ivanovic

I disagree; I think if we were to bet this river we'd be turning our hand into a bluff. Renmember we raised flop 4 way after villain 3/4 pots it. He isn't continuing lightly here at all; at worst he has something like AcK, KQc which you would imagine folds to a river bet. I guess if you have pegged villain as a calling station a value bet might be OK though. But I just see too many mid-strength flushes in their range here. Would be quite cool though to shove river as a bluff though.

edit: Also I'm not sure I would raise flop here 4 way.

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Line Check:

I disagree; I think if we were to bet this river we'd be turning our hand into a bluff. Renmember we raised flop 4 way after villain 3/4 pots it. He isn't continuing lightly here at all; at worst he has something like AcK, KQc which you would imagine folds to a river bet. I guess if you have pegged villain as a calling station a value bet might be OK though. But I just see too many mid-strength flushes in their range here. Would be quite cool though to shove river as a bluff though. edit: Also I'm not sure I would raise flop here 4 way.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Interesting Post... I still think there is value to be had on this river from lots of Pair + 1 club hands. Obviously villain dependant but I would probably bet like £22 on the turn and shove the river for value expecting villain to have a lot of more bluffcatchers than made flushes here. 

LnarinOO

it seems that this time i totally agree with IVAN..
 given the line weve taken and we have a total bluff catcher and would struggle gettin any calls from worse on river - i like the thought of turning into a bluff but doubt anyone folds any flush here -

BorinLoner

I wouldn't understand betting small on the river. To me it looks like a clear spot to value-shove or check-back.

If we have been bluffing left, right and centre raising draws, barrelling, etc., then this is a good spot to give the villain a chance to bluff-catch with his weaker Kx or perhaps QQ/JJ/AT. If that's our image, it's probably a mistake not to value-bet here. Of course that image should be altered by the fact we were 4-handed to the flop. We'd value-shove because we'd bluff-shove our missed draws.

If we haven't been very 'aggro' then just check-back. As others have said, raising the flop 4-handed and what-not has repped a very strong range if our image isn't a bit mental.


In a vacuum, I'd check back.

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Line Check:

I wouldn't understand betting small on the river. To me it looks like a clear spot to value-shove or check-back.

I didn't really get the bet/fold small line either tbf. Don't think were ever gonna be betting like 1/4 or 1/3 pot here with a flush/house/bluff so were just capping our range with this sizing? Just seems to me were opening the door for a good thinking villain to turn his hand into a bluff knowing it's gonna be tough for us to call. Maybe at 50nl oppo's in general aren't thinking on this level? I'm not really sure...

TommyD

Put him in.  Let him make a mistake.  I do love how everyone assumes villains are playing perfect poker.

Let's have a look at this, ok yeah we look plenty strong raising where we have and who we have.  But I just don't think too many people are checking flushes and full houses on the river.  I am worried about AA only.  If we shove this river villain can easily take a view we have either those super strong and busted draw hands.  Plenty has missed which we can take this line with (AcQx, Ac,Jx, QJ with a club, bare AcX).  That is how you get your AK, KQ, QcQx calls.

I think you're killing your value by not betting here.  And I like me a big bet.

LnarinOO

i disagree 

assuming that if betting we're jamming its far too thin- 

i cannot see villain hero calling with worse enough for it to be a profiftable jam given action

however i would change this depending on how villain veiws me and what my image looked like- if it was me playing vs someone id had history with then id probaly would go for thin value expecting to be called by said hands but in general here it would be far to thin imo

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check:

i disagree  assuming that if betting we're jamming its far too thin-  i cannot see villain hero calling with worse enough for it to be a profiftable jam given action however i would change this depending on how villain veiws me and what my image looked like- if it was me playing vs someone id had history with then id probaly would go for thin value expecting to be called by said hands but in general here it would be far to thin imo
Posted by LnarinOO

Well I've seen Gazza fire three plenty light.  But as we haven't been given the dynamics we can't say if this player has been seeing him do this.  Completely agree with you that our own image in the eyes of the oppo is vital here.  I can't tell you how many times I've had to look at stuff like KxJc after emptying the clip.

I'm not sure it's too thin though, I just don't see the oppo having more than a strong one pair type hand here.  Let's give ourselves other holdings:

If we had AcQx etc would you advocate emptying the clip?

If we were the villain would you call a third barrel with two red Aces, with AcAx (the first is a more comfortable call than the second imo) or with AK?

F_Ivanovic

If we had AcQx etc would you advocate emptying the clip?

If we were the villain would you call a third barrel with two red Aces, with AcAx (the first is a more comfortable call than the second imo) or with AK?To answer your first question: yes, absolutely. But this and AcJx are near enough the only bluff hands I have in this spot. Contrast that to all the value hands I have (flushes + FH's) and we have far too many value hands compared to bluff hands for a competent villain to be calling us down with one pair.

Besides that, even if villain is willing to call with 1 pair he has a lot more flushes than 1 pair hands on the river. For 1 pair hands he has maybe 2-4 max. AcTx, AcKc, AcAx, KcQx. I mean I know gazza is aggressive and capable of firing 3 barrels, but do you really expect him to be raising the flop light 4 way with 2 still to act behind him? If I had AdAh I really wouldn't be that comfortable in calling a flop raise and certainly not a turn barrel aswell. However, he can have plenty more flushes. (At least 15 combos)

LnarinOO

well this is kinda my point - if i had AcQx do i think i can get villain to fold enough of his range..?so given the psb left - we would have to make villain fold about 50% of the time fo it to be good.. AA would probally be the min he'd call profitably here with.. going for value with K-10 here expecting to get called by worse imo is too thin- bluffing with other holdings would be profitable yes but not K-10 

yes when we check behind and he does have a one pair hand we feel like we've mmissed value but i dont think wee should be too worried cos i think (most of the time) they would have folded to a 3rd barrell anyway.. 

not played a great deal with gazza so your thinking may be skewed to his play or your play vs him?!

gazza127

In Response to Re: Line Check:

In Response to Re: Line Check : Well I've seen Gazza fire three plenty light.  But as we haven't been given the dynamics we can't say if this player has been seeing him do this.  Completely agree with you that our own image in the eyes of the oppo is vital here.  I can't tell you how many times I've had to look at stuff like KxJc after emptying the clip. I'm not sure it's too thin though, I just don't see the oppo having more than a strong one pair type hand here.  Let's give ourselves other holdings: If we had AcQx etc would you advocate emptying the clip? If we were the villain would you call a third barrel with two red Aces, with AcAx (the first is a more comfortable call than the second imo) or with AK?
Posted by TommyD

Shhhhhh Tommy!  There's at least one or two people on here who still think I have the nuts each time!

I thought it was well known I never bluff?  Its always a merge...  Sometimes A high shoves can still get called by K high right??

Either way.  At the beginning of this session I was spewing chips left, right and centre... but as you can see from my chip stack I have been doing quite well.  Why is this you ask?  Well I tightened up a fair bit after this spewathon and my past play had caused people to call in spots they wouldnt normally.  The opponents were beginning to tighten their range v me at this point realising I was playing more TAG than LAG and i wasnt getting paid as often.

So when I shove here I do think that the vast majority of the time I'm only going to be called by better.  Its hard to see many hands at all which I beat which would call here.  Yeah they may think im bluffing and call light with a single pair, but given player dynamic at the time I thought id be turning my hand into a bluff by shoving.

FWIW opponent turned up with a 7 high flopped flush.

Although I was wondering if long term I should be shoving river here, or perhaps it depends on player dynamic at the time?

I also think I can't bet/fold as others have said... it probably caps my range if i bet tiny on the river.

77Chris91

Hypothetically, If we had 34cc here instead of K10 who would shove here for value and who would check back? We beat a few more hands now - AA, K10, a weird 6... But now we don't have blockers to 10's and Kings full. What's the thinnest were gonna shove for value on the river?

Just a thought  

rancid

not an easy spot


would depend heavily on any kind of levelling war with villian if we shove
we need them to fold AA/flushes so much that for the very eason we want them to call when we have houses/nut flushes - I don't see that they fold enough - probably a break even shove if played correctly so i lean towards either checking or b/f verus villians with reads on how they play 1 pr hands on these textures.

overall a check is probably best

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: Line Check:

Hypothetically, If we had 34cc here instead of K10 who would shove here for value and who would check back? We beat a few more hands now - AA, K10, a weird 6... But now we don't have blockers to 10's and Kings full. What's the thinnest were gonna shove for value on the river? Just a thought  
Posted by 77Chris91

its a good thought..! i like it..!

it would be too hard for us to say in this exact spot what the worst hand for value we should be shoving with as we dont know the villian or the dynamics to the game- ie are they a station, are we veiwed as aggro etc etc...

if we were to take a general read at this level on skypoker then we could start making assumptions but id prefer to take exploitative lines tbh-- 

if we're gonna assume we are readless and villain doesnt know if we bluff too much or too little- we need to give them a calling range for our river jam-  in their eyes they will be facing a PSB after a flop raise and 2 more barrells- we know they have some kind of hand after callling down so the question you asked is how much of that calling range do i beat with certain holdings -- i like the question..

 if we want to bet for value- for the price given to them we need to beat the required part of a certain calling  range- and also if we want to bluff, we need them to fold a required part of their turn calling range- 

if i was value betting here id want to be beating a good amount of flushes and with 34cc we dont beat any so are still looking for value from a part of the range thats most probally gonna fold- villain is required to be good here 1/3 of the time facing a psb remember 

fwiw i definatley dont believe we can be value betting anything worse then a flush and expecting a call from worse unless the table dynamics mean otherwise..