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How to press a reset button and learn better poker?

edited December 2013 in Poker Chat
I'm sure I can't be the only one, maybe others have gotten to a similar point with their game... and I know I'm not good at brevity so for the shorter version, please read just the bold red text :)

I'm very aware that my game has completely plataued in the last six months or so. I've read the odd book and tried to implement things, read loads of magazine articles, read hands in the clinic and posted a few of my own, looked back over hand history, even tried watching a few youtube sessions by random players (althouth I admit I do tend to glaze over on most of these).

I figure that I've got to a point where:
  • There are loads of daft leaks in my game that I'm struggling to even notice now - ones which now I've played on Sky microstakes cash for almost a whole year are being exploited by more and more table buddies.
  • I seem to have so many different ideas and concepts in my head I'm just confusing myself - and no doubt the sort of things which have nothing but -EV at the games I'm involved in.
  • I really don't know where to focus first in terms of improving.
  • I figure I'm taking terrible notes on players... and even where I have good notes, seem to fail in finding the creativity to take advantage of the notes.
I've played on and off for a few years, winning small amounts so that I've not needed to redeposit, but never 'proper' sums that allow me to either step up levels (with a sensible bankroll) or withdraw a meaningful amount to pay for a new telly, holiday etc. I have no dreams of playing high stakes (ie by Sky standards, NL100 or higher), becoming a pro or anything like that, but I would like to get the stage where I could realistically withdraw say £1k or so at least once a year and also have a realistic shot at qualifying for and being vaguely competitive at the occasional SPT event - not even talking about a big cash, just know that I can hold my own against the majority. 

I know I could never even consider pro - 40+ hour weeks of poker would drain all the love for the game out of me and I don't believe I could ever sit with £1,000 in front of me and not play so tight as to be an even worse player than I am now!

So I guess my query is where do I go next? I did toy with some sort of coaching, but this seems like a hefty outlay when I'll be playing no higher than 10NL / £5 tourni buy-ins and would have to absolutely tear it up for a decent period of time just to recoup the initial outlay. Not sure this is really worth it?

I do feel like I almost need to empty my head of everything poker and start again... but in the absence of being able to do that... where would a novice be recommended to restart?

Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered to this microstakes fish!

ps - apologies if this should be in the poker clinic rather than general chat...

Comments

  • edited December 2013
    Well first of all, I think your goals are very realistic and achievable, there are plenty of players on here that make £1k per year and use poker to fund a few SPT trips just playing part time for a bit of fun.

    Do you play all games on Sky, DYMs, cash, MTTs etc or do you have 1 format you stick to? I'd suggest at first you stick to 1 format, ideally the one you enjoy the most and do the best at.

    Coaching doesn't have to be completely out of the question depending on what you have in mind. I had some coaching a while ago which was £20 per hour with a reduced rate for block booking and even just 6 hours of hard core coaching can make a MASSIVE difference to your game if you take it seriously and put the work in yourself.

    I'll post some advice and things that might be helpful when you post what games you wanna play etc
  • edited December 2013
    Hi Shakinaces
    Just scoped you, which is a bit controversial, right now. :)
    Noticed that you play mainly Dyms. Dyms are kind of my thing and I do okayish at them.
    If you want to pm me about anything Dym wise, feel free. 
    My hourly rate us £0  :)
  • edited December 2013
    Cheers for the reply - didn't realise coaching could be that cheap... I must have been looking in the wrong places!

    Yeah I play all sorts, but predominantly cash (NL10 / NL8)... often have 1-2 hour free to play in one session, so as much as I love MTT I can't easily commit to the time... even if it may be optimistic to think I may find myself in a tourni for over 2 hours!

    Cash tends to be 1-4 tables... now and again stack 8 DYM tables (£3/£5 only).

    Very occasionally play the low stakes cash PLO but don't understand STT/MTT strat for that at all... well, don't understand where or how to bluff tbh... so sit at cash with 100bb and wait patiently for the few hands I recognise as being good!

    So cash NLHE is my main focus... MTT secondary
  • edited December 2013
    I think this is much more common than you may think

    I would class myself as in that bracket of players who play for fun and occasionly withdraw to treat myself to things or buy Christmas prezzies, weekends at SPT,s etc with my winnings.

    But i,ve got to a point where i,ve been on a downswing for a cp of months and don,t seem to have the appetite for the game anymore or at least online. I feel like my game isn,t improving whereas my opponenst are improving and after my recent downswing i seem to have lost al confidence and struggle to find the motivation to get back into it and get more volume in. TBH i could do with a rake race like they the ones DTM used to win everytime but these seemed to get a lot of critism. I think they were a good idea, but Sky were running them to often. If they were run now and again i think they would be more popular. I did tret myself to a new monitor so i could fit more than 4 tables ready for the next rake race but there hasn,t been one since and as i,ve not played as much recently it would take me a while to get used to playing more than 4 tables again.

    like you shakin, I have tried reading magazines, watching vids and reading some more of one of my books which sometimes gets my appetite back for a short period of time but it doesn,t seem to last.

    Although my downswing has lasted a cpl of months it hasn,t hugely affected my BR as BRM is alwasy something i,ve been quite good at managing

    I just want to get my appetite back for the game and start putting in some more volume so any advice from Lambert would be welcome for myself as well on how to do this

    Thx

  • edited December 2013
    Have you tried live poker? I wouldn't put to much into your results on "certain" online sites as they do have very random hands. Go play 1000 hands in live poker then see if your really are as bad as your online results. I suspect you maybe very very surprised.


    Online it's not a surprise for a player to hit quads, then trips, then the nut flush, whilst you hit trip aces when he has quad kings, you hit a pair of aces when he has trip kings, you hit trip jacks he hits nut flush. These hands loose us a lot of money online, but they just don't happen as often in a live game.

    Hence regulars on some sites making ££££££££'s online but not even cashing at the live events. So go try some live poker.
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    Hi Shakinaces Just scoped you, which is a bit controversial, right now. :) Noticed that you play mainly Dyms. Dyms are kind of my thing and I do okayish at them. If you want to pm me about anything Dym wise, feel free.  My hourly rate us £0  :)
    Posted by Jac35
    lol I don't get the fuss really about SS... so long as us fish can still get a handful of free searches it feels like it keeps things fairly level... plus a good little tool to keep a track of progress over time... and a little filip on the rare occasion you do sneak onto a leaderboard (I was very briefly in the top 10 for most DYM wins in a row for 2013... all the way back in late Jan lol... fully downhill since then!!)

    And having just SS myself for the first time in age, my recent run seems to have moved to a minus... must bink a tourni win somehow... and better than the £7.50 I got for the last BH I managed to luckbox... feels rare to win a tourni and still be disappointed at the end :)

    When I find a specific leak / sticking point in DYM I may well take you up on the offer. Cheers!
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    Have you tried live poker? I wouldn't put to much into your results on "certain" online sites as they do have very random hands. Go play 1000 hands in live poker then see if your really are as bad as your online results. I suspect you maybe very very surprised. Online it's not a surprise for a player to hit quads, then trips, then the nut flush, whilst you hit trip aces when he has quad kings, you hit a pair of aces when he has trip kings, you hit trip jacks he hits nut flush. These hands loose us a lot of money online, but they just don't happen as often in a live game.
    Posted by VickiPKR
    And why do you think that is, Sherlock?

    I don't really play cash, but there are some very good low/mid level stake players on here who I'm sure could help.

    If you want to know how to bust MTT's on a very frequent basis then give me a shout ;)
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker? : And why do you think that is, Sherlock? I don't really play cash, but there are some very good low/mid level stake players on here who I'm sure could help. If you want to know how to bust MTT's on a very frequent basis then give me a shout ;)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr


    I don't know why it is and it might just be my experience. But levels I can crush at live poker I just do t seem to have the same faith in my hands online.

  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker? : I don't know why it is and it might just be my experience. But levels I can crush at live poker I just do t seem to have the same faith in my hands online.
    Posted by VickiPKR
    Probably because if you play 100NL live it will be nothing like the standard playing 100NL on Sky and on Sky that's probably nothing like the standard of 100NL on stars. So just cos you can crush one, doesn't mean you'll crush both cos they are completely different games.
  • edited December 2013
    Sorry Shakin, bit busy to write a massive reply atm, about to shut the laptop down but low stakes cash is my thing and is mostly how I built my roll. I'll write a decent reply tomorrow with some advice and stuff when I get online.

    Out of interest, in the mean time, how are you getting on at 10NL at the mo? Are you steadily losing money, about breaking even or winning a small amount? Is it over a decent period of time? Are you losing your money to the same old people cos they just ALWAYS have it?
  • edited December 2013
    MP33 / VickiPKR - ta for the posts.

    It's not that I'm down on poker at the moment, nor on a downswing, more that I think my game is just treading water.

    After a tear when I first joined, probabaly because no-one had notes on me, I ran from £20 (Nov 2012) to £500 fairly quickly. Had £250 out to clear a bill, then bounced between £200-£400 ever since. I figure that the initial leap had a fair amount of positive variance (again, probably as regs sized me up) and the reality is that I'm something like a breakeven player (give or take), that sees the usual ebbs and flows to a small bankroll.

    I suppose my frustration is more in not being able to better that at NL10 when I see half the players still limping, calling 3 bets out of position with average holdings, min-betting every street... all the things that everything I've read, watched, heard, discussed labels as 'sub-optimal play' (or at least I think that's what others mean to type in the chat box, it's often *****'d out).

    I mean, that's cool, they are playing for the fun of the game, but if I'm playing more regularly I should be able to eek a few more chips right? The same way that you would expect to outperform the average person at anything you spent time practising at.

    Which is what gets me to the point of this thread and (hopefully) ironing out a few faults.

    As for live poker - I guess that's the goal of trying to get enough for an SPT! I've played live a few times, but with no friends into playing anything other than a rare home game, I find it pretty antisocial traveling a reasonable distance to find a casino - not helped that when I do play live it is like everyone knows everybody else at the table... always seems to be really cliquey with a bunch of in jokes for table talk and every single pot I win seems to earn me lip. Sounds like the SPT are maybe a bit more welcoming?
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    Sorry Shakin, bit busy to write a massive reply atm, about to shut the laptop down but low stakes cash is my thing and is mostly how I built my roll. I'll write a decent reply tomorrow with some advice and stuff when I get online. Out of interest, in the mean time, how are you getting on at 10NL at the mo? Are you steadily losing money, about breaking even or winning a small amount? Is it over a decent period of time? Are you losing your money to the same old people cos they just ALWAYS have it?
    Posted by Lambert180
    NP - I'm in no rush... as someone famous once said 'Poker is a never ending game'...

    As above, it's pretty much breakeven after an initial spurt. I don't know that any particular players have a hex on me, although I obviously try to minimise the amount of time I spend on tables with those that would appear to be healthily winning players... no point regularly sitting down knowing you are the only fish at the table!

    I don't know how many hands that encompasses, but if I figure an average of 8 hours per week, 3 table average, 90 hands/hour for a bit over a year... that must have me approaching 100k?
  • edited December 2013
    Hey Shakinaces,

    You have a pretty good game and playing the way you do, i'm sure you do win at the cash levels you play at.

    Just don't try and bluff me :P

    If you wanted to take out 1k a year, set yourself a target of £80 profit per month, which is well achievable at the levels we play at.
  • edited December 2013
    . Sounds like the SPT are maybe a bit more welcoming?
    Posted by shakinaces

    I,d say a lot more welcoming than travelling to your local casino on your own. Not only are they good fun but i find you always come away learning something new. Plus you get to meet a lot of the players who you play on a daily/weekly basis.

    I,m not sure when the next one is but i,d definately try sateliting in for it or when they are announced pick one thats closer to you and go for that one and if you don,t qualify for the main event just go along anyway . always plenty of side events. 

    In the meantime if you do go to the casino and you find it a bit clicky i wouldn,t let it bother you. I have to travel to Bpool - (about 25 miles away) and even then i normally see the same faces from local pubs and snooker clubs, but i my experience and i,m sure most will agree - live games at casinos are much much softer than playing the equivalent stakes online (probably something to do with the stakes they play at in Casinos) . You won,t find 5p/10p or 10p/20p games. They normally start at 50p/£1

    In Preston where there are no casinos they have a lot of pub games and leaugues. I,m not sure where your from but i,m sure there will be some without you having to travel to far and means you can attend them more regularly. Theres often a complete range of abilities in these from total beginners to well established online players ( who like to have a brk from being sat in front of the computer) and is often a good laugh and more of a social thing for most .
  • edited December 2013
    SPT = loads of fun, great to meet people you play with online - Its just as friendly as the community.

    Live in general is much softer than online...NL100 live probably = NL10 online in most cases from my experience.

    you have had a few offers from players to help for free, which is great - bite their hands off.

    It seems like cash is more your thing, and I'm an MTT player (decent record - SS me), but if you are intereseted in MTT coaching I'm charging £20 an hour for the first few students. I reckon I could teach a competant player like yourself to crush £5/£10 games in 4-6 hours. or the timed tourneys in 1-2 hours.

    If cash is really what your interested in, then maybe ask someone like lambert or Gazza if they will coach you. dunno if they have considered coaching, but I respect their games and they seem to do ok!

    ...It sounds like coaching is really what you need, spotting leaks isnt easy by yourself, and getting another player to help may help you fix alot of leaks you didnt know you had in a short period of time...

    of course, another option is to just post on the poker clinic constantly, loads of good players will give their honest opinions on your hands...

  • edited December 2013
    In Response to How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    I'm sure I can't be the only one, maybe others have gotten to a similar point with their game... and I know I'm not good at brevity so  for the shorter version, please read just the bold red text :) I'm very aware that my game has completely plataued in the last six months or so. I've read the odd book and tried to implement things, read loads of magazine articles, read hands in the clinic and posted a few of my own, looked back over hand history, even tried watching a few youtube sessions by random players (althouth I admit I do tend to glaze over on most of these). I figure that I've got to a point where: There are loads of daft leaks in my game that I'm struggling to even notice now - ones which now I've played on Sky microstakes cash for almost a whole year are being exploited by more and more table buddies. I seem to have so many different ideas and concepts in my head I'm just confusing myself - and no doubt the sort of things which have nothing but -EV at the games I'm involved in. I really don't know where to focus first in terms of improving. I figure I'm taking terrible notes on players... and even where I have good notes, seem to fail in finding the creativity to take advantage of the notes. I've played on and off for a few years, winning small amounts so that I've not needed to redeposit, but never 'proper' sums that allow me to either step up levels (with a sensible bankroll) or withdraw a meaningful amount to pay for a new telly, holiday etc. I have no dreams of playing high stakes (ie by Sky standards, NL100 or higher), becoming a pro or anything like that, but I would like to get the stage where I could realistically withdraw say £1k or so at least once a year and also have a realistic shot at qualifying for and being vaguely competitive at the occasional SPT event - not even talking about a big cash, just know that I can hold my own against the majority.  I know I could never even consider pro - 40+ hour weeks of poker would drain all the love for the game out of me and I don't believe I could ever sit with £1,000 in front of me and not play so tight as to be an even worse player than I am now! So I guess my query is where do I go next? I did toy with some sort of coaching, but this seems like a hefty outlay when I'll be playing no higher than 10NL / £5 tourni buy-ins and would have to absolutely tear it up for a decent period of time just to recoup the initial outlay. Not sure this is really worth it? I do feel like I almost need to empty my head of everything poker and start again... but in the absence of being able to do that... where would a novice be recommended to restart? Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered to this microstakes fish! ps - apologies if this should be in the poker clinic rather than general chat...
    Posted by shakinaces
    Excellant post suffering the same symptons myself looking forward to the replies.

  • edited December 2013
    '   I seem to have so many different ideas and concepts in my head I'm just confusing myself - and no doubt the sort of things which have nothing but -EV at the games I'm involved in.    '

    I understand this feeling. I read and listen to so much poker strategy that ingame I sometimes make a snap decision based on something I recall from tv or a book without considering my image and my opponents tendencies.  

    Personally I would play less tables and make more effort to exploit the other players mistakes and improve my hand reading vs specific opponents, rather than trying to recall 'the correct play' or out levelling yourself. 
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    Hey Shakinaces, You have a pretty good game and playing the way you do, i'm sure you do win at the cash levels you play at. Just don't try and bluff me :P If you wanted to take out 1k a year, set yourself a target of £80 profit per month, which is well achievable at the levels we play at.
    Posted by LARSON7
    lol cheers Larson - alas the bankroll doesn't lie, but hopefully I can get to that level! 

    Again, that's part of the frustration, I know I do the basics that a decent proportion of competitors at NL10 still don't do - ie not limping, playing more cautiously in early position / out of position and opening my starting hand range closer to the button, getting my bet sizing reasonably correct rather than betting 1/10th of pot or less - the sort of things repeated ad infinitum on ch861. So I figure to not be a million miles away from from refining my game to a consistently winning position... but yet it still feels that far away lol

    And yeah... too many poorly timed bluffs probably doesn't help my cause... I'm sure you have a good profit and loss versus me because of those!!
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    (decent record - SS me), but if you are intereseted in MTT coaching I'm charging £20 an hour for the first few students. I reckon I could teach a competant player like yourself to crush £5/£10 games in 4-6 hours. or the timed tourneys in 1-2 hours.
    Posted by chicknMelt
    Hi ChicknMelt - just did have a look on SS - very impressive (even with a little silver star!), although I have been a forum lurker and figured as much from your diary thread!

    That does sound a fair price, may PM when I'm at home and have a bit more time (rather than lunchtime skiving at work). As noted before, cash is my preference but would still love to get at least a solid novice game at tournaments so that I can aspire to qualifying for and not embarrassing myself at an SPT event. Being wholly competitive at low stakes buy-ins can only help with that.

    Sounds from various posts on here that being competent at £10 BI tournis online is not far from £100 BI live tournis... and given I'm not going to be rolled for anything above that, it'd be a useful level of competence to reach.
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker?:
    In Response to Re: How to press a reset button and learn better poker? : Hi ChicknMelt - just did have a look on SS - very impressive (even with a little silver star!), although I have been a forum lurker and figured as much from your diary thread! That does sound a fair price, may PM when I'm at home and have a bit more time (rather than lunchtime skiving at work). As noted before, cash is my preference but would still love to get at least a solid novice game at tournaments so that I can aspire to qualifying for and not embarrassing myself at an SPT event. Being wholly competitive at low stakes buy-ins can only help with that. Sounds from various posts on here that being competent at £10 BI tournis online is not far from £100 BI live tournis... and given I'm not going to be rolled for anything above that, it'd be a useful level of competence to reach.
    Posted by shakinaces

    I dont know if you realise it, but you just gave me a rubdown for losing my gold star...if you'd looked yesterday it was gold... Apparently nearly £1k in profit last night (UKPC seat + a small profit from MTTs) wasn't enough to stay in 5th spot on the leaderboard! grrr

    still..only $1 away from my arch nemesis stayorgo, and getting MY gold star back!

    cool, PM me if/when you feel like it.
  • edited December 2013
    Lol apologies for that, I was unaware there was other stars to be gained!  Have pinged a PM about your coaching, look forward to hearing more.

    If anyone else happens to be reading this far down the thread - how do people approach note taking at cash tables?  

    Do you tend to try and predominantly focus on only a small number of players at any one time and build a reasonably detailed view of regular names at the level you are currently playing, or is it a bit more scattergun and just jotting things down as an when you notice them / particularly weird lines taken etc?

    I acknowledge I am not sufficiently aware enough of most of my opponents and guilty of making too many robot plays. Dunno what the means in levels of thinking, other than 'low', which in turns mean I flip between giving way too much credit (assuming everyone must have it when I raise with KK and get an A / monochrome flop) or assume everyone is always at it (when I raise in position, c-bet, check and then face a bet on the river... and call against all the wrong oppos).

    Be useful to get some view as to how I could try and focus my mind on improving note taking skills.

    Making the most of those notes can be a later lesson :/
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