Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos

PokerNoon

I've been playing a lot of sit n gos recently and one thing I sometimes see is the following.

Today for example I was in a 10 seater SNG in the dealer position. It's really early on and nothing much has happened yet. I have AJs and everyone folds to me.

I raise up 3BBs and the small blind goes all in against me. 

So I fold, because despite having a good hand, I don't want to risk reducing my tournament life to a coin flip. I'd rather get to the flop if I can, then outplay weaker players there in order to accumulate chips.

Couple of rounds later, the same thing happens again - this time with A10s. 

How do you go about dealing with players like this? I know the standard advice is to wait and be patient and he will take himself out of the game eventually. But in the meantime he is pinching chips off me when he probably has a worse hand. He gets himself to the point of being chip leader whilst my stack dwindles, despite me feeling like I didn't do a lot wrong.

Even if had AA I still wouldn't be that keen to call him and go down to the lottery of the next 5 cards.

What do you think?

DoubleAAA

In Response to Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

I've been playing a lot of sit n gos recently and one thing I sometimes see is the following. Today for example I was in a 10 seater SNG in the dealer position. It's really early on and nothing much has happened yet. I have AJs and everyone folds to me. I raise up 3BBs and the small blind goes all in against me.  So I fold, because despite having a good hand, I don't want to risk reducing my tournament life to a coin flip. I'd rather get to the flop if I can, then outplay weaker players there in order to accumulate chips. Couple of rounds later, the same thing happens again - this time with A10s.  How do you go about dealing with players like this? I know the standard advice is to wait and be patient and he will take himself out of the game eventually. But in the meantime he is pinching chips off me when he probably has a worse hand. He gets himself to the point of being chip leader whilst my stack dwindles, despite me feeling like I didn't do a lot wrong. Even if had AA I still wouldn't be that keen to call him and go down to the lottery of the next 5 cards. What do you think?
Posted by PokerNoon

Are you actually serious with that statement?

DOHHHHHHH

Look around and find some pot limit, or limit games where there are restrictions on how much a player can bet.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

In Response to Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos : Are you actually serious with that statement?
Posted by DoubleAAA

Yes I am. Of course I would still call, but I wouldn't like it. I've lost count of the number of times I've held a so called premium hand and lost heads up to absolute junk. 

If somebody could answer the question with some kind of usable strategy it would be helpful. I don't want to play pot limit, I want an idea of how to handle this specific kind of player.

LARSON7

I would call them with a strong hand, if they are shoving constantly.

Not really much else than can be done.

DOHHHHHHH

Well the answer is to call them wider than you appear to be willing too?

When a player is all in you only have 2 options, call or fold.

You don't like calling, so keep folding?

What else can you do.

Sit out?

booboo5205

In Response to Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

I've been playing a lot of sit n gos recently and one thing I sometimes see is the following. Today for example I was in a 10 seater SNG in the dealer position. It's really early on and nothing much has happened yet. I have AJs and everyone folds to me. I raise up 3BBs and the small blind goes all in against me.  So I fold, because despite having a good hand, I don't want to risk reducing my tournament life to a coin flip. I'd rather get to the flop if I can, then outplay weaker players there in order to accumulate chips. Couple of rounds later, the same thing happens again - this time with A10s.  How do you go about dealing with players like this? I know the standard advice is to wait and be patient and he will take himself out of the game eventually. But in the meantime he is pinching chips off me when he probably has a worse hand. He gets himself to the point of being chip leader whilst my stack dwindles, despite me feeling like I didn't do a lot wrong. Even if had AA I still wouldn't be that keen to call him and go down to the lottery of the next 5 cards. What do you think?
Posted by PokerNoon

 I am no expert m8 but maybe go up a level or 2 .

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

Well the answer is to call them wider than you appear to be willing too? When a player is all in you only have 2 options, call or fold. You don't like calling, so keep folding? What else can you do. Sit out?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

It's not a problem calling them later on when the blinds are bigger (especially when you're already in the money).

It's more a problem early on, when there are still 10 people at the table. If I have AK and they shove with 78, they still have a 35% chance of winning. If they shoved with 77, those odds would then become 55% in their favour.

Hence my question. I'm sat with AJs on one occasion and A10s on the other. I can't even guarantee that I have 2 overcards. Hence I don't believe that reducing my tournament life to a coin flip at this stage will be profitable in the long run. If the entry fee is £10, I would have to make £20 every time I win one of these all in battles in order to break even.

Even though you become the favourite at the table when you double up early like this, there is still no guarantee of even placing in the money when there are still 9 people left.

Hence my question. I'm sure there's a smarter way of managing this until this person gets themself out of the game without being forced to play the game on their terms. I just haven't figured it out yet

peter27

Pretty much agree with what most people have said - you just need to bite the bullet and call if you have a good hand, and hope for the best.

I can understand where you are coming from though, being reduced to coinflip situations can be frustrating, especially when you're on a bad run of form. It is important to realise that if you make the "standard plays", you will profit in the long run :-)

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

Pretty much agree with what most people have said - you just need to bite the bullet and call if you have a good hand, and hope for the best. I can understand where you are coming from though, being reduced to coinflip situations can be frustrating, especially when you're on a bad run of form. It is important to realise that if you make the "standard plays", you will profit in the long run :-)
Posted by peter27

Yeah - I'm just not sure right now if the 'right play' is actually a profitable one in SNGs. In a cash game then I would totally agree - if you're over 50% to win the hand, then an all in play is absolutely right. If you lose, you just reload and go again - and over time you'll be up on the deal.

I'm just not sure that it is profitable to go down to a coin flip situation when there are still 10 people left in a SNG. Half the time you'll get double the number of chips of everyone else, and half the time you'll lose your entry fee. Can you guarantee that you'll be able to recoup at least double your entry fee (usually 3rd or 2nd place) every time you double up? I don't think you can when there are still 9 players left.

I guess I'll just have to play around with it and see. Maybe doing a bigger raise preflop might have worked - or even calling perhaps. I think some people are keen to show 'you're not pushing me around and stealing my blinds' and perhaps this is where plays like this come from. A call in this situation might just go under the radar.

I will experiment and see - thanks for all the replies so far

Jac35

Maybe play on Sky!

They have 6max sngs that might be worth a try

Lambert180

Well if it's not profitable then it's not 'the right play'. The right play is the right play for exactly the reason that it's the most profitable.

Voluntarily and knowingly taking a flip at the very start of a SnG is always gonna be bad but we don't know it's a flip do we? We have to try to assess how wide we think he's shoving and then decide what we're gonna call with. We should easy be able to decide on a range where we are WAY better than flipping if he's a maniac. 

Short of it being like a DYM bubble or some strange situation, calling an allin when we have AA is always gonna be the most profitable decision to make.

If you really are trying to take the lower variance route then just tighten up when it comes to raising hands where this player hasnt acted yet. If he's folded in front of you then play as normal, if he's opened then don't 3bet him unless you intend to call a shove etc.

unknown_username

In Response to Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

I've been playing a lot of sit n gos recently and one thing I sometimes see is the following. Today for example I was in a 10 seater SNG in the dealer position. It's really early on and nothing much has happened yet. I have AJs and everyone folds to me. I raise up 3BBs and the small blind goes all in against me.  So I fold, because despite having a good hand, I don't want to risk reducing my tournament life to a coin flip. I'd rather get to the flop if I can, then outplay weaker players there in order to accumulate chips. Couple of rounds later, the same thing happens again - this time with A10s.  How do you go about dealing with players like this? I know the standard advice is to wait and be patient and he will take himself out of the game eventually. But in the meantime he is pinching chips off me when he probably has a worse hand. He gets himself to the point of being chip leader whilst my stack dwindles, despite me feeling like I didn't do a lot wrong. Even if had AA I still wouldn't be that keen to call him and go down to the lottery of the next 5 cards. What do you think?
Posted by PokerNoon

Take a look at the players around the table...you will encounter an aggro player at almost every table, however, there will also always be weeker players at the table. Identify them as quickly as you can and take advandage of this instead of tangling with the aggro player.

Stealing blinds from others will compensate for the aggro player stealing them from you.

Decent players will often try to protect their Big Blinds, identify the ones that won't and use this to your advantage.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

Well if it's not profitable then it's not 'the right play'. The right play is the right play for exactly the reason that it's the most profitable. Voluntarily and knowingly taking a flip at the very start of a SnG is always gonna be bad but we don't know it's a flip do we? We have to try to assess how wide we think he's shoving and then decide what we're gonna call with. We should easy be able to decide on a range where we are WAY better than flipping if he's a maniac.  Short of it being like a DYM bubble or some strange situation, calling an allin when we have AA is always gonna be the most profitable decision to make. If you really are trying to take the lower variance route then just tighten up when it comes to raising hands where this player hasnt acted yet. If he's folded in front of you then play as normal, if he's opened then don't 3bet him unless you intend to call a shove etc.
Posted by Lambert180

Thanks, this is solid stuff.

I think if I have a high PP and I assume that he has doesn't have a higher PP, then I'm happy to call. Otherwise I don't think calling will be profitable in the long run.

It's quite easy to play these maniacs if they play before you - but when they are sat to your left, you never know quite what is coming next.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos:

In Response to Constant all-ins on Sit n Gos : Take a look at the players around the table...you will encounter an aggro player at almost every table, however, there will also always be weeker players at the table. Identify them as quickly as you can and take advandage of this instead of tangling with the aggro player. Stealing blinds from others will compensate for the aggro player stealing them from you. Decent players will often try to protect their Big Blinds, identify the ones that won't and use this to your advantage.
Posted by POKERTREV

Thanks, this is solid advice. Except in the situation where the maniac is sat either one or two seats to your left. That means that he is always in either the SB or BB when you are the dealer. The bit I find tricky is knowing what to do when he is betting after me (which is pretty much nearly always). You don't know whether he will fold, call or go all in on any given action of yours. 

DoubleAAA

Lambert more or less covered it, but seriously dude, if you find yourself raising and finding a certain opponent shoving on you and you're raising with a hand that you're not prepared to call a shove with, then simply tighten up and only raise with a hand that YOU ARE prepared to call a shove with.  Wait for higher blinds to come around and then shove, instead of raising, if still not prepared to call the shove.

As regards to the not liking to call with AA all in pf, you should be jumping to ever get in this situation!

bbMike

...or start to raise less. This makes his shove tactic less profitable for him, and you lose less to every shove until you do get that hand to snap him off with.