calling a jam with Ax

craigcu12

having failed to steal the blinds I decided to call as my chipstack was very big anyway but really I right away called myself a fool knowing he is certain to hold either an Ax or a pair so basically I would be either needing a flush straight or an A.

my guess with this villain is he was waiting for that A or pair and wouldn't jam until then.
here I was playing a bit too loose but knowing they could well jam most aces what is the lowest kicker that i should have if i am to call?

x	Small blind		400.00	400.00	4199.75
BRUSIUS	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	8195.00
	Your hole cards	A 2
FLASHJONNY	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		1600.00	2800.00	26950.00
susan1968	Fold
x	All-in		4199.75	6999.75	0.00
BRUSIUS	Fold
craigcu12	Call		2999.75	9999.50	23950.25
x	Show	9 9
craigcu12	Show	A 2
Flop
		3 J Q
Turn
		8
River
		7

DOHHHHHHH

It's a good call as played.

Susans stack on the button is important, if it's anywhere around 8/9k or under you are better off just shoving yourself rather than 'inducing'.

DoubleAAA

With your reads Craig, you need to be good 30% of the time vs Ax,22+ and here you have 37% Equity so the call is fine. FWIW, even if your hand was A2o you would still have 33.5% Equity.

Edit: As Doooh rightly pointed out, It would be better for you to open shove as you're playing 10bb effective stacks so long as Btn has 8-9k or less.

Do you ever use Pokerstove Craig?  If not, you should get it as you can play around with hand ranges and show you what equity you have etc.

TeddyBloat

The pot is laying you odds such that you need 3000/10000*100 = 30% equity to call.

With A2s you have enough equity to call v a range of any ace or pair, and indeed v his exact holding.

He should have weaker hands than Ax in his range, and having raised its a fairly standard call id say.

craigcu12

susan had about 14K chips herself and had just did a jam against this guy herself in the SB.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

susan had about 14K chips herself and had just did a jam against this guy herself in the SB.
Posted by craigcu12

mr/call v sb and mr/fold v btn and bb is fine then, wp.

hhyftrftdr

If you don't call here then its bad! And shorty should be should be looking for a spin up so shoving quite wide (despite no F/E), so A2 can be ahead here.

F_Ivanovic

If we have a read he's only ever shoving a tightish range of 77+, ATs+ I don't hate a fold. We're getting correct odds vs that range I think but we have a chip stack where we don't really need to be calling off 3k with 30% equity. If we lose a few of them we're suddenly down to an average stack whereas we can just pick up tons of pots uncontested a lot with our stack size.

However, we need to be really sure his range is that tight otherwise it does become really bad to fold.

craigcu12

this hand was the one that said it all raise UTG with >10BB someone goes all in and he folds! as we were near the bubble I was guessing he she just wanted to get past that.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
susan1968	Big blind		800.00	800.00	15286.50
	Your hole cards	9 2
x	Raise		1600.00	2400.00	5399.75
BRUSIUS	All-in		6595.00	8995.00	0.00
FLASHJONNY	Fold
craigcu12	Fold
susan1968	Fold
x	Fold

DoubleAAA

That person should never be open/folding with that stack!  Also, if it's near the bubble and you are wanting to get into the money, you should be tightening your range even more than you would usually do if you had a bigger stack.

hhyftrftdr

Is that you above Ivan, raise folding from a very short stack?

And with that A2, even if the guy has folded for the last 47 orbits, if we don't call here it's very close to chip dumping!

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

Is that you above Ivan, raise folding from a very short stack? And with that A2, even if the guy has folded for the last 47 orbits, if we don't call here it's very close to chip dumping!
Posted by hhyftrftdr

LOL Harry! We agree on something!

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

Is that you above Ivan, raise folding from a very short stack? And with that A2, even if the guy has folded for the last 47 orbits, if we don't call here it's very close to chip dumping!
Posted by hhyftrftdr

vs a range of AJ+ and 77+ we have about 31% equity and need 30% to call. So whilst the call is +ev it is marginal if we factor into ICM I don't think it is a clear call at all. If someone has folded the last 47 orbits they have a range that at is at least as tight as that and possibly even tighter...

Hardly constitutes chip dumping making a slightly -ev fold (which could easily be +ev factoring into ICM and how good/bad the table is) 

And nope, that isn't me! I don't have a raise/fold range UTG with 10bbs (except in special circumstances!!) It's only OTB that you might find me raise/folding with 10bbs!

edit: Just thought I'd add something else. Have you ever been sat with 7bb, 8bb, 9bb stack sizes in a tournament on sky and tried jamming with them? You'll find they get through very very often which means if you do raise/fold out of a 10-12bb stack size it's not like you are suddenly left with no fold equity, and we can easily find ourselves back up to 10-12bbs in no time with a few jams.

hhyftrftdr

It's pretty close to chip dumping! 

And if we were seriously considering folding to that 5bb jam, then we shouldn't be opening with A2, as we know we have to call it off.

I really hope that last sentence is a joke

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax : vs a range of AJ+ and 77+ we have about 31% equity and need 30% to call. So whilst the call is +ev it is marginal if we factor into ICM I don't think it is a clear call at all. If someone has folded the last 47 orbits they have a range that at is at least as tight as that and possibly even tighter... Hardly constitutes chip dumping making a slightly -ev fold (which could easily be +ev factoring into ICM and how good/bad the table is)  And nope, that isn't me! I don't have a raise/fold range UTG with 10bbs (except in special circumstances!!) It's only OTB that you might find me raise/folding with 10bbs! edit: Just thought I'd add something else. Have you ever been sat with 7bb, 8bb, 9bb stack sizes in a tournament on sky and tried jamming with them? You'll find they get through very very often which means if you do raise/fold out of a 10-12bb stack size it's not like you are suddenly left with no fold equity, and we can easily find ourselves back up to 10-12bbs in no time with a few jams.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Sorry Ivan, as much as I respect your game, I'm just never gonna agree with you on this aspect of tournament poker. The argument is that there are no antes on Sky, but that is negated by the fact its 6max; We will be in the blinds 33% of the time. A couple of orbits of being card/situation dead and we are blinding away to nothing. 15-20bb, we should be looking to pick up pots by 3bet jamming (potentially quite wide depending on table dynamic), 14bb and under, we should be playing very decisive poker. Raise folding from an 11bb stack should be a 'taken outside and shot' punishment, as Tikay might say. 

Always happy to discuss/debate things with you though but I am pretty comfortable and confident in my MTT game though. 

F_Ivanovic

Just because we are folding to a jam doesn't make it a mistake to open it. If villain is only shoving the top 8% of hands then we are picking up the blinds so often by raising that it would be foolish to not open ATC. 

Also the fact that it is 6 max does not negate there being no ante's - yes, the blinds come around quicker but because there are only 6 players and we are often in fairly late position we get to shove much more often. I mean have you even played a tournament on sky? The amount of times you find yourself in an unopened pot is crazy! Which means there are tons of situations when you get down to 7bb-9bb where you can just open jam. 

Also going back to raise/folding. I'll only be convinced it is becoming a mistake when I find out I'm doing it too often. Mostly when I play I feel like my min-r get folds way more often than I get shoved on which to me is why it seems profitable. fwiw if I was on the BTN and you were in the SB/BB I don't think you would find me raise/folding vs you

F_Ivanovic

Just remembered I asked a quite well known youtube (MTT specialist) player this question a while back and just checked back now to see I got an answer. He said that somewhere between 8 and 12bbs is where he would start just open shoving as opposed to min-r (which co-incidentally is exactly what I have said in a past thread!)

"14bbs or under and we should be playing decisive poker" - I take it this means you only ever shove or fold with this stack size? It's kind of ironic because you say it's a bad idea to be blind down to 8bb's but yet with this strategy of shove/fold at 14bbs you are either going to:

a) end up in this situation a lot

b) Be forced to make unprofitable shoves

a) is because for us to profitably shove a 14bb stack size we need to have a really tight range. This is because we are risking 14bb to only win 1.5bb. (sometimes just 1bb if you are SB/BB) Not the greatest of risk/reward ratios. Thus we need to have much higher equity on avg against a calling range. 

b) is because if we are shoving a tight range we might be card dead for a while hence we need to start shoving hands that have too poor equity when called to make the risk/reward of winning 1.5bb worthwhile.

I guess we'll never agree though on this :P I'd just like to hear a good argument from you about why it is bad!

craigcu12

I guess I should just make the fold, I would have been better off to raise a hand with 2 cards between J and 7 because if I know he is mostly going to be jamming with Ax or pairs I will normally only have 1 card that will allow me to go ahead when calling with A2-A5 but, with hands containing 2 cards between J-7 although i expect to be behind but unlike them low aces here i could win with either card the only danger is big pairs.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

It's pretty close to chip dumping!  And if we were seriously considering folding to that 5bb jam, then we shouldn't be opening with A2, as we know we have to call it off. I really hope that last sentence is a joke
Posted by hhyftrftdr

HH when i see low stacks do this it's no wonder i question weather i should be calling A2s.
My bet on the turn might have been low but why he didn't jam with 2 pair i don't know.
i regret not doing the full bet myself on the turn.

khokhar07	Small blind		300.00	300.00	23328.75
craigcu12	Big blind		600.00	900.00	22775.00
	Your hole cards	4 6
x	Call		600.00	1500.00	9460.00
kash2809	Fold
ad4274	Fold
khokhar07	Call		300.00	1800.00	23028.75
craigcu12	Check
Flop
		7 10 5
khokhar07	Check
craigcu12	Check
x	Bet		600.00	2400.00	8860.00
khokhar07	Call		600.00	3000.00	22428.75
craigcu12	Raise		1800.00	4800.00	20975.00
x	Call		1200.00	6000.00	7660.00
khokhar07	Fold
Turn
		8
craigcu12	Bet		2000.00	8000.00	18975.00
x	Call		2000.00	10000.00	5660.00
River
		5
craigcu12	Bet		2400.00	12400.00	16575.00
x	Call		2400.00	14800.00	3260.00
craigcu12	Show	4 6
x	Muck	10 8

DOHHHHHHH

Criminal not getting stacks in at some point there Craig after setting it up on the flop.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

Criminal not getting stacks in at some point there Craig after setting it up on the flop.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

it seems to me that some people are just too much of a nit when they so close to the bubble which was the case with this hand 32 players remaining bubble burst at 30 so rather than jam now he will just hold on. as for myself well i focusing too much on tempting him to shove than just shoving myself knowing if he has something he is more than likely to call it.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

I guess I should just make the fold, I would have been better off to raise a hand with 2 cards between J and 7 because if I know he is mostly going to be jamming with Ax or pairs I will normally only have 1 card that will allow me to go ahead when calling with A2-A5 but, with hands containing 2 cards between J-7 although i expect to be behind but unlike them low aces here i could win with either card the only danger is big pairs.
Posted by craigcu12

Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold?  To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad.  You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack.

How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ?  If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax : Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold?  To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad.  You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack. How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ?  If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Craig isn't this guy in this situation though. If I was the other guy I might fold A2 as well as the smallest of pairs 22-33, maybe 44 but wouldn't fold KQ and KJ. This is because we have almost no fold equity. So against me, you or most players it would be a mistake to fold the A2s. But if we have a concrete read our opponent only has good Ax and mid-high pairs here then folding A2s is only a small mistake +ev wise which means we can still fold it if we believe we can find plenty of higher ev spots.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax : Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold?  To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad.  You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack. How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ?  If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well.
Posted by DoubleAAA

people such as yourself and HH I would never be folding A2s because I do't expect you to be acting like a tight nit.

but if a shorty is not bothering to jam having did a min raise or when holding 2 pair on a very wet board is not willing to jam the turn or river it's quite obvious they are definitely playing like a nit. so why loose another 3BB knowing that I will only have 1 card that is any use

DoubleAAA

If you're willing to m/r utg and fold for such a small amount when only needing 30% to call, then perhaps it would be better to tighten your range with the short stack still to act after you.  VS a range of AT+,77+ you're still 31%. It's still +ev to call and how can you be so sure villian is not shoving KQ,KJ,QJs?

Also to note, Ad2d vs AKo is 30.1%.  I just cannot fathom how you can ever find a way of folding this.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

If you're willing to m/r utg and fold for such a small amount when only needing 30% to call, then perhaps it would be better to tighten your range with the short stack still to act after you.  VS a range of AT+,77+ you're still 31%. It's still +ev to call and how can you be so sure villian is not shoving KQ,KJ,QJs? Also to note, Ad2d vs AKo is 30.1%.  I just cannot fathom how you can ever find a way of folding this.
Posted by DoubleAAA

well I can't see why you would just fold your hand when you have the chance to steal his blinds.

surely the rest of the table would see that the reason for me folding is he has been so tight.

think of it like this AKo vs A2s or Ako vs J10s which would you want because I certainly know what my choice is

A2 was basically unlucky to have come at a time when he had something  but I was never to know that all I knew was he didn't seem keen on doing the jam so their was free chips for me.

had I been able to see his 2 cards I would not have did that min raise.

DoubleAAA

What I mean is, even if you know that he is likely to have a bigger A in his range than you, it's still profitable to call given this situation.

rancid

raise folding versus this stack is terrible


if your going to fold, don't open in the first place

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

Just remembered I asked a quite well known youtube (MTT specialist) player this question a while back and just checked back now to see I got an answer. He said that somewhere between 8 and 12bbs is where he would start just open shoving as opposed to min-r (which co-incidentally is exactly what I have said in a past thread!) "14bbs or under and we should be playing decisive poker" - I take it this means you only ever shove or fold with this stack size? It's kind of ironic because you say it's a bad idea to be blind down to 8bb's but yet with this strategy of shove/fold at 14bbs you are either going to: a) end up in this situation a lot b) Be forced to make unprofitable shoves a) is because for us to profitably shove a 14bb stack size we need to have a really tight range. This is because we are risking 14bb to only win 1.5bb. (sometimes just 1bb if you are SB/BB) Not the greatest of risk/reward ratios. Thus we need to have much higher equity on avg against a calling range.  b) is because if we are shoving a tight range we might be card dead for a while hence we need to start shoving hands that have too poor equity when called to make the risk/reward of winning 1.5bb worthwhile. I guess we'll never agree though on this :P I'd just like to hear a good argument from you about why it is bad!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Ivan, do you really need me to explain to you, a very experienced poker player, the importance of retaining fold equity in a tournament?! Seriously man, come on.

Perhaps it's me in the minority on this subject, who knows, but I'd be very surprised to see some of this sites biggest MTT winners, people like MattBates, TommyD, Yoyo, Stayorgo, Chicknmelt, come on here and say they are content to blind away to 8bb before getting shovy. Maybe one of them will prove me wrong....

Lambert180

In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax:

Criminal not getting stacks in at some point there Craig after setting it up on the flop.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

THIS.

How do we not get stacks in when it's so shallow and the turn card is the absolute dream card.

F_Ivanovic

I don't think anyone is content to blind away to 8bb :P If it happens, it happens - but we still retain fold equity with this stack size in non-BH tournaments. BB needs 42% equity to call, SB around 44% and anyone else needs 45%. Meaning they can't just call with any 2...

Also you seem to think I am always advocating going down to 8bbs before getting shovy! It's completely opponent dependant. Say we are on the BTN and have 12bb's in an unopened pot. Both blinds are tight and will both fold at least 2/3 of the time to a min-r but shove the rest. Thus we are opening 100% of BTN's. The ev of this play is at least 0.33bb (if we assume we just r/f every time we get shoved on) 

Lets also assume they shove with the same/similar range that they would call a shove. If; instead of min-r we just open shove every time our play suddenly becomes massively -ev when opening 100% of BTN's. We will win 3bb 2/3 of the time but 1/3 of the time we might be all in with on average 31% equity. That means we are losing 4.4bbs. Thus we are losing 1.4bbs in total.

From this it seems clear that min-r the BTN is better than shoving in this particular situation. Maths backs up that point.