Standard of Play in DYMs

PokerNoon

So I tried my hand at DYMs again today for the first time in a few weeks. Cashed in 3/3 that I played, which was pleasing, given that I'm still pretty new to poker.

However it was only at the £5.50 level. So I'm curious to know from people who've played the higher levels - in your opinion, is there a big jump in standard from £5.50 to £11? And from £11 to £22 and so on? How does the gameplay change as you go up through the levels?

jordz16

Depends on the time of day/week, in the week the standard would be much higher at £11 and £22plus comepared to £5.50 but on the weekends and late at night you get 11/22 games running which are as soft as most 5.50s  but 33/55upwards is pretty much always as solid as they come regardless of the time

peter27

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

Depends on the time of day/week, in the week the standard would be much higher at £11 and £22plus comepared to £5.50 but on the weekends and late at night you get 11/22 games running which are as soft as most 5.50s  but 33/55upwards is pretty much always as solid as they come regardless of the time
Posted by jordz16

Hmmm - that's interesting! I've been playing the DYM's at levels of £5.50 and lower as part of a challenge I'm doing so this information is very useful for the future when I move up.

Strangely, I do considerably better in Six-Max games compared to DYM's though!

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs : Hmmm - that's interesting! I've been playing the DYM's at levels of £5.50 and lower as part of a challenge I'm doing so this information is very useful for the future when I move up. Strangely, I do considerably better in Six-Max games compared to DYM's though!
Posted by peter27

What's this challenge you're on, Peter?

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

Depends on the time of day/week, in the week the standard would be much higher at £11 and £22plus comepared to £5.50 but on the weekends and late at night you get 11/22 games running which are as soft as most 5.50s  but 33/55upwards is pretty much always as solid as they come regardless of the time
Posted by jordz16

Cheers. Tried moving up to the £11 level tonight and finished 5th (although I did take a bit of a bad beat when I was chip leader, but that's poker isn't it). I guess there's an argument to say that when you get a healthy chip lead, to just shut up shop and fold everything except AA pretty much. 

IDONKCALLU

i find some lower stakes harder then the higher stakes think £22 are the easiest 1s for me to play

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

i find some lower stakes harder then the higher stakes think £22 are the easiest 1s for me to play
Posted by IDONKCALLU

That's interesting - why do you find that?

VickiPKR

I would agree, Some of the 30p/60p/£1.15 DYM's can be a so tight. The take FOR EVERRRRRRR to end and everyone is waiting for 5 Ace's before even calling the BB.

I think it maybe lower stakes players have a smaller bankroll, they play for fun an dthey want their £20 BR to last at a long time.

Someone in a £11 or £22 DYM probably has a larger bankroll, plays more agressively and doesn't mind putting his money at risk, or even losing as they know/hope over time they will win more DYM's than they lose.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

I would agree, Some of the 30p/60p/£1.15 DYM's can be a so tight. The take FOR EVERRRRRRR to end and everyone is waiting for 5 Ace's before even calling the BB. I think it maybe lower stakes players have a smaller bankroll, they play for fun an dthey want their £20 BR to last at a long time. Someone in a £11 or £22 DYM probably has a larger bankroll, plays more agressively and doesn't mind putting his money at risk, or even losing as they know/hope over time they will win more DYM's than they lose.
Posted by VickiPKR

That's really interesting, and a little counter-intuitive. I would have thought that people would have been tighter at the higher stakes because they don't want to lose more money. I would have expected that at smaller stakes people would be going all in every other hand because they think 'well, it's only a couple of quid'.

However...having played a few £2.25 DYMs this morning, the play would seem to confirm what you just said - every game has taken forever and everyone is waiting for someone else to blink first.

VickiPKR

Making a decent ROI on low stakes DYM's is also tough. Play 3 60p DYM's and win 2 lose 1. You end up with just 20p profit.

Play 3 £2.25 DYM's win 2 lose 1 you end up with just £1.25 profit. An bearing in mind these low stakes DYM's can take an hour each you maybe better at £5.50 or above if you're looking to grind them.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

Making a decent ROI on low stakes DYM's is also tough. Play 3 60p DYM's and win 2 lose 1. You end up with just 20p profit. Play 3 £2.25 DYM's win 2 lose 1 you end up with just £1.25 profit. An bearing in mind these low stakes DYM's can take an hour each you maybe better at £5.50 or above if you're looking to grind them.
Posted by VickiPKR

I'm aiming to grind at the £11 level, possibly £22.

Problem is my BR is pathetic and I don't want to have to deposit more cash at this stage. So after winning 3 £5.50 DYMs yesterday I 'graduated' to the £11 level and lost, which put me back almost to square one. After then losing a £5.50 DYM straight after this I was forced to drop down to £2.25 in an attempt to rebuild. I've played 3 of those this morning, won 2 lost 1. And you're right - they take a LOOOONG time and are surprisingly hard work.

Lambert180

In terms of ROI then yes it's preferable to play the £3.30s minimum because that's where it becomes 10% rake and given that edges are so small in DYMs it makes a massive difference paying 10% rake instead of 15%

As for £22 games being the softest or softer than lower stakes... completely ridiculous and no offence to posters but PokerNoon I'd ignore that, it's just not true.

The higher you go, the more reggy the games become and the better they'll understand DYM strategy. That's not to say there won't be some very weak players in the games but the percentage of bad players will be alot lower @ £22s and than say £3s. Yes they may have a bigger BR but they won't be more willing to 'gamble' if they're winning DYM players and as Vicki said, they know they're making moves that will win long term which is obviously bad for us, we want the weak players who are making moves that lose long term.

The higher you move, the more game selection (sharkscoping people already regged helps) will seriously help your winate, whereas @ £5s or under, I'd be happy just regging any DYM without even looking in the lobby.

Lambert180

If you wanna grind them, I'd suggest playing at a level where you have probably 40+ BIs and getting good at multi-tabling them. Winrates are small in DYMs, like a sicko ROI is 10% so if you're playing £11s obv that's £1.10 profit per game. You can probably only play 2 games per hour (1tabling).... imo to grind DYMs with the intention of making decent money you have to be able to AT LEAST 6 tables. On the bright side, it's the easiest game to multi table imo cos it's very formulaic.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

If you wanna grind them, I'd suggest playing at a level where you have probably 40+ BIs and getting good at multi-tabling them. Winrates are small in DYMs, like a sicko ROI is 10% so if you're playing £11s obv that's £1.10 profit per game. You can probably only play 2 games per hour (1tabling).... imo to grind DYMs with the intention of making decent money you have to be able to AT LEAST 6 tables. On the bright side, it's the easiest game to multi table imo cos it's very formulaic.
Posted by Lambert180

Cheers for your posts Lambert, helpful/useful as ever.

What's your feeling of playing DYMs vs standard SnGs? I'm on the fence at the moment which one I prefer - I like the fact that I can win 1 SnG and it gives me a nice 'buffer' where I can then afford to lose afterwards, whereas with DYMs, you really have to keep winning.

VickiPKR

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

If you wanna grind them, I'd suggest playing at a level where you have probably 40+ BIs and getting good at multi-tabling them. Winrates are small in DYMs, like a sicko ROI is 10% so if you're playing £11s obv that's £1.10 profit per game. You can probably only play 2 games per hour (1tabling).... imo to grind DYMs with the intention of making decent money you have to be able to AT LEAST 6 tables. On the bright side, it's the easiest game to multi table imo cos it's very formulaic.
Posted by Lambert180

Give yourself a little challenge, go play 6 £1.15 DYM's..let us now the result....

peter27

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs : What's this challenge you're on, Peter?
Posted by PokerNoon

Well, it's probably not a challenge, just trying to make £10 into as much as I can. I have a diary on Sky Poker here if you want to read :-)

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs : Give yourself a little challenge, go play 6 £1.15 DYM's..let us now the result....
Posted by VickiPKR

Ha, thanks for your suggestion Vicki, but I think I'd earn money more quickly if I went out picking pennies up in the street

PokerNoon

So pleased to say in my experiments today I played either 12 or 14 DYMs (can't remember exactly) and made a profit of just over £20.

Nothing that is going to scare Phil Ivey too much, I admit - but as a test to see whether I can make money from grinding DYMs alongside my horse trading, I'm feeling quite positive. Certainly there seems to be less variance with this than there are in MTTs - not sure what the rest of you make of that statement.

Ideally I'll be looking at doing this for a few hours each day as well as the horse trading and then play MTTs on the side for a hopeful occasional big score.

My aim now is to be making what could be considered a reasonable daily wage from DYMs by the start of January. Given that I've only been playing poker about 5 weeks, that may seem ridiculous...but since I'm only aiming at £50 profit per day, I'd like to think it's an achievable goal (either that or I'm totally deluded).

That's based on the fact that I never did more than 2 tables at once (most of the time only one) and only moved back to the £5.50 tables later on in the session when I'd rebuilt my bankroll.

In fact I might start a journal on this. I believe that's the done thing around here

Anyway thanks to all for your kind help so far. I've been like a magpie recently, pinching all the shiny bits of wisdom and keeping them for myself. 

Lambert180

Nice one, and yes DYMs are definitely the lowest variance of all the formats you can play. Just be aware that it doesn't mean downswings/bad runs don't happen. Because just breaking even means you have to win 55/100 games (if I remember rightly), it only takes losing a few more races on the bubble more than you'd expect to have a bit of a rough patch.

You seem to make the sports trading sound very easy and low risk... do you think that's just cos you're very experienced at it or you're just over simplifying? Does it need some knowledge of horse racing or is it mroe abuot the maths behind the odds? Do you have to stake quite a lot to get reasonable returns? Is it pretty low variance due to laying off bets or do you still experience swings when things don't go as planned/expected?

You teach me how to sports trade and I'll teach you poker

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

Nice one, and yes DYMs are definitely the lowest variance of all the formats you can play. Just be aware that it doesn't mean downswings/bad runs don't happen. Because just breaking even means you have to win 55/100 games (if I remember rightly), it only takes losing a few more races on the bubble more than you'd expect to have a bit of a rough patch. You seem to make the sports trading sound very easy and low risk... do you think that's just cos you're very experienced at it or you're just over simplifying? Does it need some knowledge of horse racing or is it mroe abuot the maths behind the odds? Do you have to stake quite a lot to get reasonable returns? Is it pretty low variance due to laying off bets or do you still experience swings when things don't go as planned/expected? You teach me how to sports trade and I'll teach you poker
Posted by Lambert180

I wouldn't say the sports trading is low risk...but it's not that high risk either. 

I would compare it to betting on the stock market. It can either go up or down. And the more it goes up or down, the more you win or lose.

When I talk about backing and laying bets, that's equivalent to buying and selling stocks. 

I know pretty much zero about horse racing itself. I just pick the races I want to get involved with (ie ones that conform to the entry criteria I've created), then look for a time when I think the odds on a horse will move in a certain direction. Then I bet, and I bet big. Then it's a matter of holding your nerve depending on which way the market moves. That's the trickiest bit. The mistake most people make is they cut out winning positions early and let losing positions run. 

Anyway if that's a serious offer on the poker/trading swap, I'd be happy. We could certainly have a chat anyway. Have a look at my blog on betfairtrading.co.uk if you haven't seen it already as a starting point, then come back with questions from there. That will give you a good amount of info to be going on with. 

Ice_Tiger

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

If you wanna grind them, I'd suggest playing at a level where you have probably 40+ BIs and getting good at multi-tabling them. Winrates are small in DYMs, like a sicko ROI is 10% so if you're playing £11s obv that's £1.10 profit per game. You can probably only play 2 games per hour (1tabling).... imo to grind DYMs with the intention of making decent money you have to be able to AT LEAST 6 tables. On the bright side, it's the easiest game to multi table imo cos it's very formulaic.
Posted by Lambert180

I pretty much agree with all your posts Paul but I have to disagree slightly here.

I find I can play over 4 MTTS comfortably and 6 cash tables comfortably but find that I can only play 3 DYMs comfortably. I think this is because they are formulaic and that they reach a crunch point pretty quickly. You also need to be very stack size aware. I find that at four tables, I start to lose comfort with this.

Unless it is just me.

Lambert180

I think it might just be you I think a lot of DYM players play like 12 tables, or at least 6-7+, you really have to tbh because the ROI from them is so small that you really got smash the volume.

I think it's the fact they're formulaic that mean they should be easier to cope with,like cash is just generally a harder format of the game, it requires a lot more in depth thought to do well, like trying to assign a range when someone has c/r the flop, checked the turn, then lead the river and you have 2pr or whatever. Whereas in late stages of MTTs it's virtually always gonna be like 'do I open this hand? do I fold or get it in to a 3bet? do I 3bet that player here, if so, am I folding to a 4bet or not? etc.

Cash probably like 90% of money goes in postflop, late stages of MTTs 90% of money probably goes in preflop. And preflop is a FAR easier part of the game to perfect.

Likewise, DYMs will be mostly determined by preflop play in the later stages cos stacks don't allow for much else. But yeah I can see it might be tricky on a ton of tables to keep up with all stack sizes/have time to check each time you look at the table, and you don't wanna be making snap decisions on the bubble like 'oh I've got AK on the BTN with 9xBB so I'll jam', and not even realise that the guy in the CO that just folded has 1xBB.

DoubleAAA

I'd agree with what Lambert said.  DYMs are quite robotic and is pretty much a preflop game.  Yes you have to take into account stack sizes, but then, you have to take into account stack sizes when playing mtts, ie does the sb or bb have less than 10bbs?  if I raise this btn are any of the blinds likely to call or play back at me?

It's just a matter of practice, the more you play with 3-4 tables, the easier it will become and you can then start to add more tables as you go.

IDONKCALLU

As for £22 games being the softest or softer than lower stakes... completely ridiculous and no offence to posters but PokerNoon I'd ignore that, it's just not true.



how would u know lambert u never played a dym so u cnt really comment can u where as ive played alot of £22 dyms

Jac35

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

As for £22 games being the softest or softer than lower stakes... completely ridiculous and no offence to posters but PokerNoon I'd ignore that, it's just not true. how would u know lambert u never played a dym so u cnt really comment can u where as ive played alot of £22 dyms
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I'm qualified to comment.

The £22 games are much tougher

IDONKCALLU

ive played all levels upto £55  and some of the lower stake levels are a real grind go upto level 10 some of em alot of £22 cyms finish on level 7-8  normally get couple players out within 1st 6 levels

CHILLIE

In Response to Re: Standard of Play in DYMs:

ive played all levels upto £55  and some of the lower stake levels are a real grind go upto level 10 some of em alot of £22 cyms finish on level 7-8  normally get couple players out within 1st 6 levels
Posted by IDONKCALLU

F or once I agree with idonkcallu the lower stakes are much more grinding than the higher stakes,so many players in higher stakes with money to burn and play very loose.