What to do after raise on the turn?

waller02

This is the first time oppo had 3 bet me in the 25 or so minutes that he had been on the table. So my first question is what was the best line to take pre?

When he checks the flop I'm thinking he is either suoer strong and trying to trap or he has simply missed. The turn card brings down my Ace and on reflection I'm not sure if I should have just checked to keep the pot small?? Would he check the turn with an Ax hand?? His hand looks so strong here with the c/min raise but given the stack sizes I figured that after betting I may as well set him in??

This was from tonights turbo and I had him covered so was quite happy to get the chips in here? Is this ok? If not how should I have played it? Does the fast structure make it an easy spot to go to war or should it have no bearing on how I should play the hand.

All thoughts/advice appreciated. Cheers

x	Small blind		100.00	100.00	5467.50
wanturmo28	Big blind		200.00	300.00	4730.00
	Your hole cards	A Q
bertsaces2	Fold
DivsDreams	Fold
bigg431	Fold
waller02	Raise		500.00	800.00	8365.00
x	Raise		1300.00	2100.00	4167.50
wanturmo28	Fold
waller02	Call		900.00	3000.00	7465.00
Flop
		2 8 6
x	Check
waller02	Check
Turn
		A
x	Check
waller02	Bet		1800.00	4800.00	5665.00
x	Raise		3600.00	8400.00	567.50
waller02	?

hhyftrftdr

If this isn't AK or AA I'll eat my hat

Generally speaking, I'd be making my decision pre flop here bearing in mind the stack sizes involved. Things are complicated somewhat by table position, as in theory we should be opening pretty wide on the button and AQ is pretty big in this spot. But the fact he hasn't raised us for 25 minutes leans me quite heavily towards a fold pre.

When he c/r you here you are almost always drawing very thin/dead.

LARSON7

I would only min raise, at this stage.

I'd probably fold to the big 3 bet or 4 bet. Depends if they've been active or passive, from what you have said they are pretty passive, so would lean towards a fold. Pre flop the pots 3k, your opponent has just over a pot size bet behind.

The min raise looks pretty bad on the turn, most times we are beat here, but with whats in the middle we prob need to go with it.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

I would only min raise, at this stage. I'd probably fold to the big 3 bet or 4 bet. Depends if they've been active or passive, from what you have said they are pretty passive, so would lean towards a fold. Pre flop the pots 3k, your opponent has just over a pot size bet behind. The min raise looks pretty bad on the turn, most times we are beat here, but with whats in the middle we prob need to go with it.
Posted by LARSON7

This is burning tournament chips. It doesn't matter that we have TP w/ a good kicker, as oppo has basically PM'ed us during the hand informing us of their holding. 

I will donate again to the pokerthon charity if AQ is good here on this turn!

Fold pre.... Vs a more active/better/less rubbish player, 4bet all in pre.

DoubleAAA

I think the problem with our hand stems from preflop.  I would be opening for just a min raise here, keeping everything balanced and pots slightly smaller to cbet in.  If your opponent has been active and 3bets you then you have to get this in preflop from looking at the stack sizes.  However, if the person has been passive (as you have mentioned) and this is his first 3bet, then I think we have to sigh-fold here.

On with the hand - Now we have got to the turn, I really do not like our bet size here. I would bet 1/3 here and fold to any shove.  Can you really see passive villain shoving AJ,AT,KK,QQ here?  As Harry said, this screams of AA,AK, although I expect this to be AK far more.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

I think the problem with our hand stems from preflop.  I would be opening for just a min raise here, keeping everything balanced and pots slightly smaller to cbet in.  If your opponent has been active and 3bets you then you have to get this in preflop from looking at the stack sizes.  However, if the person has been passive (as you have mentioned) and this is his first 3bet, then I think we have to sigh-fold here. On with the hand - Now we have got to the turn, I really do not like our bet size here. I would bet 1/3 here and fold to any shove.  Can you really see passive villain shoving AJ,AT,KK,QQ here?  As Harry said, this screams of AA,AK, although I expect this to be AK far more.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Probably not even betting to be honest, if all we are going to do is fold to a shove. I assume we are betting TP as a value hand and not a bluff....but given reads/action, seems unlikely that worse will call us. 

Check back turn in position. Also keeps our hand somewhat disguised. Villain might give us a tricky decision on river though.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn? : This is burning tournament chips. It doesn't matter that we have TP w/ a good kicker, as oppo has basically PM'ed us during the hand informing us of their holding.  I will donate again to the pokerthon charity if AQ is good here on this turn! Fold pre.... Vs a more active/better/less rubbish player, 4bet all in pre.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Fold pre, as played its burning chips to fold ott.

Chances are we are beat, re my original post, but with the odds as played, we can't fold.

They most likely have AK, but with the odds, it would be bad to fold.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn? : Fold pre, as played its burning chips to fold ott. Chances are we are beat, re my original post, but with the odds as played, we can't fold. They most likely have AK, but with the odds, it would be bad to fold.
Posted by LARSON7

No, it wouldn't be bad to fold. We know that you are almost always beat, but you'd still stick the rest in anyway? These are tourney chips, seems silly to give them away when we know we are behind....

As above, probably not even betting this turn. If we are ahead, we're miles ahead, same if we are behind. 

Lambert180

This is a mistake so many people make Larson, we're very very rarely ever truly committed to hands if we really think we're beat practically 100% of the time, unless we think we have a decent amount of outs to get there.

Here we can fold and leave ourselves 28xBB which is huge in an MTT without antes. Make the call and we have 16xBB probably very close to 100% of the time. Not quite a panic stack but certainly not a great stack either, why would we voluntarily put such a massive dent in our stack just cos the pot odds are quite good if reads tell us we're just always beat.

LARSON7

It would be a mistake folding after we have called a massive 3 bet and hut our gin card.

This all derives from the pre flop play.

We are getting 3/4-1 here on our money and folding would be pretty terrible.

The turn in wholly irrelevant, it should have been a fold pre, or 4 bet pre.

Lambert180

We shouldn't compound one mistake by making another.

Just cos we flat a 4bet in cash with QQ against a nit does that mean we have to stack off on 100% of low boards cos there are just as many combos of AK as there are AA/KK? No cos sometimes the postflop betting gives away they can never have AK and we are beat.

If our Q will give us the win, that's 3 outs so we have about 6% chance of getting there on the river which is not even anywhere near close enough to the odds we're getting. So that means we have to have the best hand sometimes. Can you name 1 hand that we beat that a tight/passive villian takes this line with given there are like zero draws he can have?

DOHHHHHHH

turn lead is way too big.

when he jams over that size we're in trouble, but dnt think we can peel pre then fold this board.

bet smaller, he can have more bluffs/semi bluffs in his range then we can get it in in better shape.

LARSON7

The only read as per op is that it's the first time we've been 3 bet.

We don't know if they are tight and or passive.

You are saying there range here is exclusivly, AK. We would need solid reads to be so precise, which we don't have.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

It would be a mistake folding after we have called a massive 3 bet and hut our gin card. This all derives from the pre flop play. We are getting 3/4-1 here on our money and folding would be pretty terrible. The turn in wholly irrelevant, it should have been a fold pre, or 4 bet pre.
Posted by LARSON7

It doesn't matter what odds we are getting, we are behind! We know we are behind. Look at the villains play! 

Folding when we have the worst hand isn't terrible whatsoever. Paying him off when we know we are in awful shape is pretty terrible I'd say.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What to do after raise on the turn?:

The only read as per op is that it's the first time we've been 3 bet. We don't know if they are tight and or passive. You are saying there range here is exclusivly, AK. We would need solid reads to be so precise, which we don't have.
Posted by LARSON7

Waller is a good player. I'd assume he is opening plenty of buttons. Villain hasn't 3bet once in 25 minutes. This is quite a lot of orbits! So when villain raises here, I think we can narrow them down a fair way. I did say in an earlier post that table positions complicate things but only slightly.

C/C on the flop. A on the turn. Villain then check min raises us...leaving behind 600 chips....what on earth do you think he has done that with?! Has he suddenly just gone apesh!t with KK/QQ? Has he got some wild airball and left himself like 2bb behind? Or has he got AA/AK, checked flop for deception (AA)/missed flop and didn't know what to do(AK)....have they c/mr us with AJ/A10? I'm dubious.

Lambert180

They wouldn't click back the turn with AJ/AT imo, and given what it says in OP, I don't think they're even 3betting these hands pre anyway. Don't think he'd clickback KK/QQ with an ace out.

I just can't see a single hand we beat in his range. I stand by my question... can you name a hand that we beat where he'd take this line? Bear in mind he's done the ridic clickback.... plz don't fold... rather than just shoving lol.

BigHawk89

You have to remember not everyone plays their hands to the "book" not loving the spot but dont think his range is just AK which is probably the most likely to have us beat. Surely he can turn up with AQ,AJ,A10?

TBH if his range is that tight pre you could fold pre or check back the turn.

chicknMelt

a few things...

you said the villain hasn't 3bet you until now... but what about others?

how often have you been opening the button?

...its quite possible that the villain is reasonably loose, but hasn't had a good 3bet spot vs you yet because others have been opening often and you havent been in the hand etc etc

...............

on information provided though...

against most opponents, i'm shoving pre, but there are some opponents that will only 3bet QQ+ and AK OP...this looks like one of them. in which case, i fold preflop.

as played, on the turn, as already said - the bet sizing is too big. we are also only ever really going to get 1 street of value from worse hands like QQ and KK, and by betting we give the villan the opportunity to push us off the hand. In this instance, I would be happy to check back the turn - it induces bluffs/value bets from worse hands, easier to get a street of value from PP's -  with the plan of calling up to around a half pot bet on the river from the villain ( A shove/pot sized bet would often mean the villain is trying to make up for losing value by slow playing - you see this alot at smaller stakes), or betting for value if checked to again. If our read on the villains range is wrong, and we missed a street of value from AJ or AT then so be it, but thats really the worst case scenario if we play it like this.

for those that said they would set them in after the rr on the turn - you have to ask, how often is the villain making this play as a bluff. if the answer is less than about 1 in 5, then you should fold. I personally think this would be a bluff around 1-2% of the time. everything about the hand screams strength.

waller02

I made 3 mistakes in this hand it seems.

I had been raising pre in late position on a regular basis without meeting much resistance. For this reason I think I can't just put the oppo on a QQ+ plus hand, yes it was the first time he had 3 bet me but he could also just be drawing the line in the sand with a weaker hand given the fact it is another button raise. I didn't want to 4 bet/get the chips in but still felt my hand was to strong to let go pre, especially as I am in position.

Post flop was awful play by myself, I agree that I should have checked and that my bet was too big.

As for how the hand played out...........I took the worst possible approach and set him in. He was sooo much stronger than AK/AA. He had 88

Looking back it is so obvious that I'm beat but in game I was running well and I'm putting this down to positive tilt (good enough excuse for me!)

Thanks for all the advice

ClintonH83

I don't mind the call pre flop, he could have many combinations of cards, just because this is the first time he's 3 bet us we cant just fold AQ like a girl...

I think you should of got your info on the flop by betting when he checks... if you bet 1800 and he raises you have nothing so you fold. Checking the flop and turning the A just gets you into a world of pain!