auto-fold?

devonfish5

nl4 unknown opponent is this an auto-fold or am I playing too tight here?  thanks

Amount	Pot	Balance
devonfish5	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.89
mand564	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.08
CraigSG1	Sit out
	Your hole cards	Q Q
bungay	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.22
jumbofish	Fold
x	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£4.16
devonfish5	Raise		£0.18	£0.32	£4.71
mand564	Fold
bungay	Fold
x	Call		£0.16	£0.48	£4.00
Flop
		A 10 9
devonfish5	Check
x	Bet		£0.48	£0.96	£3.52
devonfish5	Fold
x	Muck
x	Win		£0.44		£3.96
x	Return		£0.48	£0.04	£4.44

Lambert180

You've made life hard for yourself by checking imo cos you just open yourself up to being bluffed off the best hand.

We should be betting this flop. Happy to take it down on the flop but can also get value from FDs, Tx, probably some 9x (depending on how good villians are), QJ, J8, 78, probably KQ/KJ

As played, I prob just let it go, but think we should have bet the flop ourselves

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

You've made life hard for yourself by checking imo cos you just open yourself up to being bluffed off the best hand. We should be betting this flop. Happy to take it down on the flop but can also get value from FDs, Tx, probably some 9x (depending on how good villians are), QJ, J8, 78, probably KQ/KJ As played, I prob just let it go, but think we should have bet the flop ourselves
Posted by Lambert180

thanks Paul,
so I should always c-bet big pairs when ace comes on flop...regardless?
what if I get called or re-raised? do I give up?
or bet next street again?

Lambert180

Well it depends on the player, but if you're readless at 4NL then I would on most flops. Try not to assume the worst and think they must have Ax, try to think of their whole range which for 4NL limp/caller will be HUGE.

Preflop he can probably have 22-TT (some limp JJ+ too), A2-AT (again some will do it with AJ-AK too), probably every semi connecting hand that involves a broadway card, K8+, Q8+, J8+, probably every semi connecting hand like 56, 67, 78, 79, 89, T9, 57,68, and prob some random suited trash like K4s, Q6s etc etc

Essentially, he has a MASSIVE range of hands, and only a very small part of it is Ax/T9 or sets.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

Well it depends on the player, but if you're readless at 4NL then I would on most flops. Try not to assume the worst and think they must have Ax, try to think of their whole range which for 4NL limp/caller will be HUGE. Preflop he can probably have 22-TT (some limp JJ+ too), A2-AT (again some will do it with AJ-AK too), probably every semi connecting hand that involves a broadway card, K8+, Q8+, J8+, probably every semi connecting hand like 56, 67, 78, 79, 89, T9, 57,68, and prob some random suited trash like K4s, Q6s etc etc Essentially, he has a MASSIVE range of hands, and only a very small part of it is Ax/T9 or sets.
Posted by Lambert180

thanks again Paul,

so many times though they will have the Ax in this spot.
I know you are right that they might also have all those other hands u mention.
so am I not better off folding here.. losing 20p and finding another spot?
the number of times I see this situation occur is  quite regular.
or.. as u say should I bet the flop myself and re-assess?

craigcu12

their might be an A on the flop but what you should be thinking about their is masses of draws out their too also even if you were behind to an A you have still got back door flush and straight draws possible if he just does a call on the flop.

it's when a cbet is done on the flop that most pots will be won now on nl4. the story about micro stakes being filled with calling stations is history now what you have on nl4 is lots who want cheap flops and then on the flop if they miss they will just give up even if it is just 4p.

as the villian has show the signs of someone who wants to see a cheap flop when he has position to his advantage, the likelihood is that this guy won't raise his hand if you did a cbet unless he has a very strong hand.

as played this is just a fold.

devonfish5

thanks craig

he has shown he wants to see a cheap flop by calling 4p on the button.
he I presumed must have something to call my 18p raise.
ok yes I've checked flop oop which as lambert says he would bet.
so he bets pot. is it a bluff or is it he wants to get called, do you think?

how would you have played it, if u don't mind me asking?
cheers,
dev

Lambert180

Yeah as played I would probably fold.

The thing that's different about cash as opposed to SnGs/MTTs is that there's never really an arguement for waiting for better spots. You'll have hundreds of situations every session and every single one is really under the same conditions. It's not like MTTs where a situtation may be marginal/avoidable in level 1, but not so much so in the deep stages (or vice versa)... in cash, if you've got a +EV situation, then it's +EV

About your other questions... I'd probably be betting around 25p, and I'm definitely folding to a raise on the flop. We can see just from their preflop line that they are passive, so when a passive player decides to take an aggressive line (betting/raising rather than checking/calling), it's usually because they have what they think is a strong hand and we can comfortably fold.

If he calls, we re-assess on the turn, we might make a set, we might pick up a FD, we might pick up a GS, we might pick up an OESD, the turn could be another A so it's now less likely they have Ax and we've just gone ahead of T9 by making a better 2pr. It could also be a bad card like a T or 9, so now we're not beating Ax and we're not beating his 2nd/3rd pr hands cos he just made trips. You gotta think ahead in poker but at the same time, you gotta re-assess everytime a new card comes down.

devonfish5

thanks once again Paul.

what I'm thinking is that what I thought was a simple situation here is really quite complex. 

there are so many factors involved here, many that I don't even understand properly.

I'm obviously not thinking anywhere near your level, and most of this I'm finding mind blowing tbh.

at least I've picked up the bit about betting the flop and folding to a re-raise  lol

the phrase 'I've so much to learn and so little time' comes to mind  lol

dev

edit; also just about getting the bit about how a player who takes the passive line, ie; calling/checking suddenly goes all aggro ie; betting, indicating as u say he likes his hand.

so here is that not the case... he has been passive p/f limping then calling my raise and then gone mad with his pot bet
on flop after my check?
or am I way off here?

simonnatur

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

thanks once again Paul. what I'm thinking is that what I thought was a simple situation here is really quite complex.  there are so many factors involved here, many that I don't even understand properly. I'm obviously not thinking anywhere near your level, and most of this I'm finding mind blowing tbh. at least I've picked up the bit about betting the flop and folding to a re-raise  lol the phrase 'I've so much to learn and so little time' comes to mind  lol dev
Posted by devonfish5

Dev, I think you should also give a little consideration to backdoor equity when you decide whether to bet the flop. In this case any 8,J,K or spade will give us additional outs to win the hand even against an opponent with top pair.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

thanks craig he has shown he wants to see a cheap flop by calling 4p on the button. he I presumed must have something to call my 18p raise. ok yes I've checked flop oop which as lambert says he would bet. so he bets pot. is it a bluff or is it he wants to get called, do you think? how would you have played it, if u don't mind me asking? cheers, dev
Posted by devonfish5

the only time you can class this as a bluff from a limper is if you have got reading that he is a maniac post flop who bets with anything, any other limper who wants to bluff is most likely to only do 4p or 8p.  so basically when this guy bets he is either holding 2 pair or set and hoping you have an A in your hand or he has AJ-AK.

the way I would have played it was cbet 20p that if raised can be folded.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

thanks once again Paul. what I'm thinking is that what I thought was a simple situation here is really quite complex.  there are so many factors involved here, many that I don't even understand properly. I'm obviously not thinking anywhere near your level, and most of this I'm finding mind blowing tbh. at least I've picked up the bit about betting the flop and folding to a re-raise  lol the phrase 'I've so much to learn and so little time' comes to mind  lol dev edit; also just about getting the bit about how a player who takes the passive line, ie; calling/checking suddenly goes all aggro ie; betting, indicating as u say he likes his hand. so here is that not the case... he has been passive p/f limping then calling my raise and then gone mad with his pot bet on flop after my check? or am I way off here?
Posted by devonfish5

You're exactly right, but we didn't know he was gonna full pot it until we checked lol. That's why I'd fold the flop as you've played it cos it's likely he has us beat, and even if he doesn't we're probably gonna face 1 or 2 more bets before showdown and we can't just keep calling down if we don't improve.

If you did exactly the same next time in this situation, it may be that he checks with his FD, straight draw, Tx, 9x, and you just gave him a free chance to catch up and missed out on value.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

In Response to Re: auto-fold? : Dev, I think you should also give a little consideration to backdoor equity when you decide whether to bet the flop. In this case any 8,J,K or spade will give us additional outs to win the hand even against an opponent with top pair.
Posted by simonnatur

thanks simon,

yeah, again not even thought about that tbh.
guess I'm just seeing the cards and how it is at the time.
guess there are 3 streets to try and win the hand...

AND I'M NOT WALKING DOWN ANY OF 'EM !!!

cheers mate

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

In Response to Re: auto-fold? : the only time you can class this as a bluff from a limper is if you have got reading that he is a maniac post flop who bets with anything, any other limper who wants to bluff is most likely to only do 4p or 8p.  so basically when this guy bets he is either holding 2 pair or set and hoping you have an A in your hand or he has AJ-AK. the way I would have played it was cbet 20p that if raised can be folded.
Posted by craigcu12

cheers Craig,

so at least my thinking of my QQ was beat was good then

cheers dev

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

In Response to Re: auto-fold? : You're exactly right, but we didn't know he was gonna full pot it until we checked lol. That's why I'd fold the flop as you've played it cos it's likely he has us beat, and even if he doesn't we're probably gonna face 1 or 2 more bets before showdown and we can't just keep calling down if we don't improve. If you did exactly the same next time in this situation, it may be that he checks with his FD, straight draw, Tx, 9x, and you just gave him a free chance to catch up and missed out on value.
Posted by Lambert180

thanks again Paul,

so to sum this up..

ok as played but c bet flop is better and fold to re-raise.
or c-bet then call his re-raise... maybe? ang go to next card  then assess

yes,

craigcu12

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

In Response to Re: auto-fold? : thanks again Paul, so to sum this up.. ok as played but c bet flop is better and fold to re-raise. or c-bet then call his re-raise... maybe? ang go to next card  then assess yes,
Posted by devonfish5

what we doing when cbetting is we are getting value from hands such as 10x 9x and the flush and straight draws and also preventing giving Kx and 22-88 the card they want in other words we are making them pay to see the next street rather than allowing them to check and see a free card.

if he is going to raise your cbet then it would be folded, cards such as  K J 8 and spade or the second A  are cards that can help us when they call the cbet and are ahead, when he does a raise all we really would be hoping for is one of the 2 remaining queens.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: auto-fold?:

In Response to Re: auto-fold? : what we doing when cbetting is we are getting value from hands such as 10x 9x and the flush and straight draws and also preventing giving Kx and 22-88 the card they want in other words we are making them pay to see the next street rather than allowing them to check and see a free card. if he is going to raise your cbet then it would be folded, cards such as  K J 8 and spade or the second A  are cards that can help us when they call the cbet and are ahead, when he does a raise all we really would be hoping for is one of the 2 remaining queens.
Posted by craigcu12

thanks again Craig,

alot to this poker malarkey, I'm thinking.. or not as the case may be.

best wishes,
dev