TAX DODGERS?????

windamon

is it fair to say that pro pkr plyrs are tax dodgers?

DoubleAAA

Winnings are non-taxable so no.  How can you dodge something that you're not liable to pay in the first place?

jdsallstar

if you tax all the winning players you'd also have to allow the losing players to use their losses to reduce their tax burden also IMO

TommyD

In Response to TAX DODGERS?????:

is it fair to say that pro pkr plyrs are tax dodgers?
Posted by windamon

No it's not.

Dodging implies or asserts a person is avoiding paying tax they are duty bound to pay.

Slykllist

Poker sites make money their profits from the rake applied to all poker activity on the site.  These sites are then taxed on these profits so the government are getting their bit.

The question of taxing poker pros brings with it a whole host of other arguments.  Should all poker winnings be taxed?  Should losing players be eligible for tax relief? How do you define a professional poker player, where is the line drawn?

On balance I think it's preferable for them to be exempt from tax.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

Poker sites make money their profits from the rake applied to all poker activity on the site.  These sites are then taxed on these profits so the government are getting their bit. The question of taxing poker pros brings with it a whole host of other arguments.  Should all poker winnings be taxed?  Should losing players be eligible for tax relief? How do you define a professional poker player, where is the line drawn? On balance I think it's preferable for them to be exempt from tax.
Posted by Slykllist

Good points here.

If you remember, before about 1999, income from gambling used to be taxable. You used to get the option in the bookies whether you paid tax when you placed the bet, or when you collected the winnings.

If you chose the second option, the initial stake was lower, but the total amount of tax paid was higher if you ended up winning.

Nowadays we don't have those issues, I'm happy to say. That said, if you do well with bookmakers you get banned. If you do well with Betfair these days, you are subjected to the premium charge (I have to pay 20% of my winnings back to them).

Google 'betfair premium charge' if you're curious...slight tangent to the thread, but interesting (well, to me at least).

scotty77

I can confirm that if you are a winning poker player you are still paying a load of tax.  Just not in the direct form of income tax.  I've also been making NI contributions for years (a lot of my peers haven't been tho, but I always advise them to do that at the very least).

This thread has reminded me to do my self assesment!

MattBates

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

I can confirm that if you are a winning poker player you are still paying a load of tax.  Just not in the direct form of income tax.  I've also been making NI contributions for years (a lot of my peers haven't been tho, but I always advise them to do that at the very least). This thread has reminded me to do my self assesment!
Posted by scotty77

Self assessment? Is this where you look in the mirror and say what great teeth you have?

shakinaces

I suppose the more morally dubious issue would be if you were claiming benefits while still coining it in from playing poker... which could be seen as not far removed from doing jobs 'cash in hand' in order to avoid paying tax (which is a tax dodge).

I would take the wild guess that there are people that fall into this category?

Out of interest, how does this work in somewhere like America (pre-ban) - they still have to pay taxes on profits (?) and therefore can claim relief against losses... that must become a massive headache to try and work out, especially for low stakes players that maybe only make a few hundred/thousand each year from their pokerz / don't win every year.

Would a UK player have to file US tax returns if they won during the WSOP, say?

shakinaces

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : Good points here. If you remember, before about 1999, income from gambling used to be taxable. You used to get the option in the bookies whether you paid tax when you placed the bet, or when you collected the winnings. If you chose the second option, the initial stake was lower, but the total amount of tax paid was higher if you ended up winning. Nowadays we don't have those issues, I'm happy to say. That said, if you do well with bookmakers you get banned. If you do well with Betfair these days, you are subjected to the premium charge (I have to pay 20% of my winnings back to them). Google 'betfair premium charge' if you're curious...slight tangent to the thread, but interesting (well, to me at least).
Posted by PokerNoon

I'm surprised that the Government ever dropped this... I mean, gambling is still seen as a 'vice' and they need more tax revenue.

Although it is a relief to not have to sit in the bookies working out what 9% of your stake was... on some sort of yankee type bet that summed to an amount not easily divisble by 9... in the days before you had a mobile phone in your pocket with a calculator function...

Gambling used to be such a great tool to perfect my mental arithmetic... that's what I told my college lecturers when I was late back from lunchtime visits to the bookies anyway...

scotty77

From talking to American players typically they have to file tax returns and pay 30pc of their winnings, but they can also deduct the losses from tournies they bricked.

Cash game winnings is meant to be included but no one ever does.  Live it would be impossible to police.  I guess if they started a proper regulated poker industry then online winnings would be fairly easy to tax.

When a UK player cashes for a certain amount, you have to file for something called an ITIN (international social security number).  This then allows you to not pay tax on your winnings.

The famous story is Peter Eastgate.  He made the November 9 and was paid out his 9th place money in July, which was subject to the Danish tax of something like 50/60pc.  Before the FT took place tho he moved into a place in London and paid 0pc tax on the rest of his winnings.

Most European poker pros live in London, or at least claim to, for this reason.  However as I said, they will still be contributing a lot in taxes to the HMRC, just not directly thru income tax.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : I'm surprised that the Government ever dropped this... I mean, gambling is still seen as a 'vice' and they need more tax revenue. Although it is a relief to not have to sit in the bookies working out what 9% of your stake was... on some sort of yankee type bet that summed to an amount not easily divisble by 9... in the days before you had a mobile phone in your pocket with a calculator function... Gambling used to be such a great tool to perfect my mental arithmetic... that's what I told my college lecturers when I was late back from lunchtime visits to the bookies anyway...
Posted by shakinaces

I think it came about as a way of tempting more folk into gambling with the 'tax free' promise. The tax is still collected, it's just the bookies that pay it, rather than the punters.

The bookies agree to it because (I think) the extra business they get as a result of people not having to pay tax makes up for the extra tax that they themselves have to fork out.

unknown_username

LOL.. NI Contributions, when i was self employed they got in touch with me to say i was behind on my contributions,

and it would effect what i was entitled to. I asked how, after a small pause he said you wont be entitled to maternity 

allowance, LOL, I said seeing as i'm male and 55, i'll pay it back 10p a week..

chicknMelt

just be glad we dont live in sweden!

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/viktor-blom-isildur1-could-face-149-million-tax-bill-17670/

yep, pretty sure the gov reviewed the gambling tax situation in the UK quite recently, and it was agreed that gamblers should not be taxed - any increases in taxes will be on the casino/poker room etc. If any costs were to be passed on to the player it would be in the form of increased rake. I'm pretty sure thats why french sites have slightly higher rake than other poker sites - tax they are passing on to the players.

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

I can confirm that if you are a winning poker player you are still paying a load of tax.  Just not in the direct form of income tax.  I've also been making NI contributions for years (a lot of my peers haven't been tho, but I always advise them to do that at the very least). This thread has reminded me to do my self assesment!
Posted by scotty77

I assume your talking about VAT etc that's not really a great argument to use IMO against someone who believes poker players get away with not paying tax because everyone pays VAT at the end of the day.

As I said above though I don't think poker players should be charged income tax because more people lose money playing poker than win. These losses would be used to reduce their tax liabilities therefore the revenue and country would be out of pocket overall.

The biggest problem is poker players claiming job seekers and I don't know how the revenue get round that one.

jdsallstar

Out of interest can pro poker players claim working tax credits etc?

booboo5205

   They make a mess out of the income they get now ,I am sure they would do the same with a "poker tax", anyway do not give them idiots something to think about.
                              rant over

scotty77

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : I assume your talking about VAT etc that's not really a great argument to use IMO against someone who believes poker players get away with not paying tax because everyone pays VAT at the end of the day. As I said above though I don't think poker players should be charged income tax because more people lose money playing poker than win. These losses would be used to reduce their tax liabilities therefore the revenue and country would be out of pocket overall. The biggest problem is poker players claiming job seekers and I don't know how the revenue get round that one.
Posted by jdsallstar

I go to my local licensed casino and play cash poker.

It is my understanding that gaming duty can be as high as 50pc and is based on the revenue of the casino rather than the actual profit.

Lets say that I play all night and win 20 pots that attract the maximum rake of £10, so £200 of rake, of which £100 will be directly sent to the HMRC.

You can also factor in things like supporting businesses in the UK and helping create/sustain jobs at online poker sites.

Like anything taxation wise it is something that is very complicated and it's all interlinked.

I have no idea about the benefits situation, having not claimed them.  I'd imagine that most successful poker player do not claim, but of course there will be some who still do, just like any other section of society.

cenachav

For working tax credits I would assume you have to be working first to claim them.  For job seekers allowance you have to prove to the job center that you are activly seeking work, applying for jobs and attending interviews.  

-Dino66-

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

I can confirm that if you are a winning poker player you are still paying a load of tax.  Just not in the direct form of income tax.  I've also been making NI contributions for years (a lot of my peers haven't been tho, but I always advise them to do that at the very least). This thread has reminded me to do my self assesment!
Posted by scotty77

 

Would I be right in assuming that although table winnings are not taxable your fees with 861 are?

What is the situation if you stake someone, should returns be declared ?

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

For working tax credits I would assume you have to be working first to claim them.  For job seekers allowance you have to prove to the job center that you are activly seeking work, applying for jobs and attending interviews.  
Posted by cenachav

This, and if you are a job seeker with assets over 16k you are not entitled to means tested Job Seekers Allowance anyway. Any means tested benefits require you to show assets you have and show bank statements etc so a consistently winning poker player cant hide that they have an income and/or assets totalling more than 16k 

I dont get the point of the OP, but this always comes up. I know Scotty77s post was part tongue in cheek but fair play to you for thinking about your future and paying NI, even though the state pension age will be 70 by the time you get there! 

Poker players dont avoid paying tax and pay indirect taxes such as VAT just like the rest of us. The government is bringing in legislation to tax offshore gaming companies, so I dont think poker players have anything to worry about. 

scotty77

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? :   Would I be right in assuming that although table winnings are not taxable your fees with 861 are? What is the situation if you stake someone, should returns be declared ?
Posted by -Dino66-

Yes you are right.  To work with Sky I had to register and now file a yearly tax return...last year I put it in late so I paid an extra £100 to the nations bank account

Can't see any reason why staking someone in poker would be any different to just playing yourself.

scotty77

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : This, and if you are a job seeker with assets over 16k you are not entitled to means tested Job Seekers Allowance anyway. Any means tested benefits require you to show assets you have and show bank statements etc so a consistently winning poker player cant hide that they have an income and/or assets totalling more than 16k  I dont get the point of the OP, but this always comes up. I know Scotty77s post was part tongue in cheek but fair play to you for thinking about your future and paying NI, even though the state pension age will be 70 by the time you get there!  Poker players dont avoid paying tax and pay indirect taxes such as VAT just like the rest of us. The government is bringing in legislation to tax offshore gaming companies, so I dont think poker players have anything to worry about. 
Posted by ACEGOONER

Meh its a way I can contribute to the economy so happy to do it.

I fully expect there to be no state pension anyway by the time that I reach that age so plan for the future in other ways anyway, yet another thing I tell my fellow peers to think about, but I doubt they listen!

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : Meh its a way I can contribute to the economy so happy to do it. I fully expect there to be no state pension anyway by the time that I reach that age so plan for the future in other ways anyway, yet another thing I tell my fellow peers to think about, but I doubt they listen!
Posted by scotty77

It will be there ryan, and would be political suicide for any party to abolish it. Just dont expect it to get you many buyins at nl200 or whatever your standard game is !

As for other players, yeah they dont really think about the future but as you get older things start to drop off and your memory goes, ask tikay!

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : I go to my local licensed casino and play cash poker. It is my understanding that gaming duty can be as high as 50pc and is based on the revenue of the casino rather than the actual profit. Lets say that I play all night and win 20 pots that attract the maximum rake of £10, so £200 of rake, of which £100 will be directly sent to the HMRC. You can also factor in things like supporting businesses in the UK and helping create/sustain jobs at online poker sites. Like anything taxation wise it is something that is very complicated and it's all interlinked. I have no idea about the benefits situation, having not claimed them.  I'd imagine that most successful poker player do not claim, but of course there will be some who still do, just like any other section of society.
Posted by scotty77

I never actually knew about gambling duty and I agree it does make a very fair argument.

Having looked into though (I'm an accountant so this kind stuff interests me sadly) using 50% as a basis is too much. The rate they pay is based on a sliding grades of between 15%-50%. Only above roughly 6m is taxed at 50%. Using grosvenor casinos financial reports I worked out their average casino makes about 7.5million and an average rate would be 34%.

This is above the basic rate tax of 20% so you could turn the whole thing round and say are poker players taxed too much? Lol and should poker players actually want to be taxed like the rest of population? Obviously gambling duty would have to be scraped and rake reduced to make it worthwhile.

My mention of tax credits was not to suggest poker players were leeches or anything by claiming  the working tax credit benefit but to me they do work and should be entitled to claim tax credits like rest of the working population. I just didn't know how it worked because the amount of credit you can claim depends on your income and I've no idea how a poker pro could give a figure for this that the revenue would find acceptable. I'm sure this also proves difficult when it comes to applying for mortgages etc too.

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : I never actually knew about gambling duty and I agree it does make a very fair argument. Having looked into though (I'm an accountant so this kind stuff interests me sadly) using 50% as a basis is too much. The rate they pay is based on a sliding grades of between 15%-50%. Only above roughly 6m is taxed at 50%. Using grosvenor casinos financial reports I worked out their average casino makes about 7.5million and an average rate would be 34%. This is above the basic rate tax of 20% so you could turn the whole thing round and say are poker players taxed too much? Lol and should poker players actually want to be taxed like the rest of population? Obviously gambling duty would have to be scraped and rake reduced to make it worthwhile. My mention of tax credits was not to suggest poker players were leeches or anything by claiming  the working tax credit benefit but to me they do work and should be entitled to claim tax credits like rest of the working population. I just didn't know how it worked because the amount of credit you can claim depends on your income and I've no idea how a poker pro could give a figure for this that the revenue would find acceptable. I'm sure this also proves difficult when it comes to applying for mortgages etc too.
Posted by jdsallstar

You can only claim working tax credits if someone in your household actually pays income tax. Poker players in principle therefore cannot claim this benefit.

The same goes for mortgages, income from poker is not defineable and therefore it is almost impossible to get a new mortgage if you disclose your profession as poker pro. 

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS?????:

In Response to Re: TAX DODGERS????? : Yes you are right.  To work with Sky I had to register and now file a yearly tax return...last year I put it in late so I paid an extra £100 to the nations bank account Can't see any reason why staking someone in poker would be any different to just playing yourself.
Posted by scotty77

Must be nice to have regular, well paying (I assume) gig with Sky to add to the poker earnings, which are unpredictable at the best of times.

I imagine that 'professional poker player' doesn't sit too well as a job title when you're applying for mortgages either. 'TV presenter' on the other hand..'take a seat sir, how much money would you like?'